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How much of your life is predetermined and unchangeable?


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#1 Kung Fu Hung-Su

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:21 AM

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I for one, despise the idea of destiny. Not only do I not like the idea, but I also believe that there is no evidence, no evidence to suggest that there are such things as coincidence and fate. I like to believe that I am the one typing on this keyboard. That my meeting lovely people here, my achievements and such were all acts of my own will. But I certainly don't know everything. I'm certainly somewhat confused when people say things like

"We were destined to be together."

What does that even mean?



And not only that, but I am rather disturbed by how my demeanour is remarkably east "asian" in spite of my general lack of exposure to other "typical" east asian kids - that is, I was not really raised by my asian parents, and went to Australian schools playing cricket, footy etc with very very few other asian students, yet somehow, when I talk to asian students around my age at uni etc, I am far more at home amongst them than I am amongst my Australian friends who I have been with since birth. Is my nature somehow preordained and totally unchangeable? :D

#2 Airforce

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:56 AM

That my meeting lovely people here

Thank you for feeling that way about us hahahahaha. Nah you're right, no such thing as destiny, we make our own choices. We dun choose what we're born as, but what we make of it is a different story.

#3 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 02:31 PM

^ STOP FOLLOWING HUNGSU YOU'RE SO WEIRD OMGGGG


Anyway,

There is a theory that everything we do is not our own fault because,
Even if it isn't predestined, every action we do is based on a past experience.
All those little things, and the idea is that hypothetically if someone
Were to be able to go back and look at every single thing thats ever happened to you,
They could 100% accurately predict your next movement.

This is all technically true, too. Though it doesn't prove destiny,
it just proves that we're continual victims of circumstance.

I still think people should have personal responsibility, though.
Otherwise there'd be mass chaos if everyone just got off scott free saying "Its because of my past".
It would be technically true, but they still DID it so.... Gotta keep society safe and orderly, right?

Destiny is bullcrap. Agreed.

Edited by --e n k y o r i*, 06 December 2009 - 02:35 PM.


#4 Airforce

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 06:29 PM

what r u talkin about? this is like only the SECOND TIME EVER I responded 2 Hung Su! I think u should stop following ME!

#5 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 08:01 PM

^ Thats a blunt lie.

#6 mlyap7_boa

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 08:05 PM

Lol I don't think anyone is followin anybody here... ^_^

Anyway, I kinda like & agree with what --e n k y o r i* said... ^_^

For me though, I do believe that I will decide what I wanna do in life but I also do believe in fate, you can't decide everythin in your life IMO... You can't say "I'm gonna go out now & I'm 100% sure I'm not gonna die" You can't decide that... Who knows? I can walk out of my house now & I might get hit by a meteor, no one can guarantee it won't happen... I believe in fate or destiny when it comes to things that I can't decide...

Edited by mlyap7_boa, 06 December 2009 - 08:06 PM.


#7 Kung Fu Hung-Su

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 03:47 AM

^ STOP FOLLOWING HUNGSU YOU'RE SO WEIRD OMGGGG

^_^



Anyway,

There is a theory that everything we do is not our own fault because,
Even if it isn't predestined, every action we do is based on a past experience.
All those little things, and the idea is that hypothetically if someone
Were to be able to go back and look at every single thing thats ever happened to you,
They could 100% accurately predict your next movement.

This is all technically true, too. Though it doesn't prove destiny,
it just proves that we're continual victims of circumstance.

I still think people should have personal responsibility, though.
Otherwise there'd be mass chaos if everyone just got off scott free saying "Its because of my past".
It would be technically true, but they still DID it so.... Gotta keep society safe and orderly, right?

This boggled my brain a bit, I had to delete my post and start again when I got it a little better haha. Anyhoo, yes, I somehow agree, a person who has walked along some path of life is predisposed to performing some set of actions of that path - this could be thought of as destiny, if a person can sing brilliantly then we believe they're certainly destined to become great and so on.

This is not a way to get out of punishment though, it's the reason punishment exists - people inevitably walk paths that take them close to paths that we believe shouldn't be walked, so we deter them from doing so.

Destiny is bullcrap. Agreed.

I seem destined to be stalked. =(

^ Thats a blunt lie.

My hero :wub: hahahaha

Lol I don't think anyone is followin anybody here... ^_^

Anyway, I kinda like & agree with what --e n k y o r i* said... ^_^

For me though, I do believe that I will decide what I wanna do in life but I also do believe in fate, you can't decide everythin in your life IMO... You can't say "I'm gonna go out now & I'm 100% sure I'm not gonna die" You can't decide that... Who knows? I can walk out of my house now & I might get hit by a meteor, no one can guarantee it won't happen... I believe in fate or destiny when it comes to things that I can't decide...

Well, I don't think those things out of your control are fate/destiny. By destiny, i mean something that is somehow predetermined. Things which out of your control in general...I call that "luck".

#8 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 03:41 PM

This boggled my brain a bit, I had to delete my post and start again when I got it a little better haha. Anyhoo, yes, I somehow agree, a person who has walked along some path of life is predisposed to performing some set of actions of that path - this could be thought of as destiny, if a person can sing brilliantly then we believe they're certainly destined to become great and so on.

This is not a way to get out of punishment though, it's the reason punishment exists - people inevitably walk paths that take them close to paths that we believe shouldn't be walked, so we deter them from doing so.


I think I explained it badly.
Its called the Theory of Determinism,
This could probably explain it better.
Link to people who can phrase themselves better than I did

Here's an excerpt:

For example when a glass smashes because it is dropped to the ground, the collision with the floor causes it to break, it does not just happen by itself.

Determinists apply the same law to human decisions. They say that since every event has a cause, your decision to drop the glass on the floor must have been caused by things that had gone before, so you had to decide to drop the glass, you could not have made any other decision


Is that better? Haha sorry~
SO in that sense, it could be considered "Destiny"
But I don't think of destiny in the way others do.
They think its like a gift or someone else manipulating things in their favor or against them,
When really its just basically random poop, and while it might be predetermined mathematically almost,
Its not a personally manipulated force by some God or Karma or The Fates.


I seem destined to be stalked. =(

My hero wub.gif hahahaha



;__; I'm so sorry for you HungSu ^_^
Try as I might I might not be able to save you,
It seems persistent )=

Edited by --e n k y o r i*, 07 December 2009 - 03:44 PM.


#9 Spring Sakura

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:51 PM

ZOMG Philosophical discussion!!!


This age old questioning of destiny and preordained circumstances, to me, is like a twisted maze, where every seeming exit seems to lead only to more winding paths.

If we consider destiny the way Enkyouri describes it, as simply the logical conclusion of a series of events that predicts particular actions and situations, then is it not, still destiny?

The removal of free will, the inability of people to choose their own paths, to control their lives, is still done by a third party. Though, in the case of determinism, it is not some sort of religious entity, but science and logic. Science, this subject, matter, object, that people of the modern world turn towards whenever they seek an answer to any sort of question --is it not like the Gods that people of the old days sought for the answer to their questions?

I think that using science and logic in determinism as an argument against destiny sort of opens up a whole box of fallacies. Even if it is not a God that writes out our lives, but rather our own actions based on a theory of scientific logic, then is that not still 'Destiny'? Is it not still the inability of people to control their lives?

Relating back to the example Hung-Su began with, I too relate to his situation. I grew up in predominantly white communities in Australia and had 1 asian friend for around about a year throughout my entire primary and secondary school education. Yet, upon entering university, I did find myself more drawn to other asians.

This is most likely a result of the influence of my family, the things they taught me, their own personal preferences for food, media, and their general way of raising me --binding me to their culture, and so, binding me to others like me --asians.

However, if we think about it that way, it still remains that I had no choice in my 'choosing' of friends. Then have I not also fulfilled my destiny?

#10 Kung Fu Hung-Su

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:20 AM

ZOMG Philosophical discussion!!!


This age old questioning of destiny and preordained circumstances, to me, is like a twisted maze, where every seeming exit seems to lead only to more winding paths.

We'll see about that! :P

If we consider destiny the way Enkyouri describes it, as simply the logical conclusion of a series of events that predicts particular actions and situations, then is it not, still destiny?

The removal of free will, the inability of people to choose their own paths, to control their lives, is still done by a third party. Though, in the case of determinism, it is not some sort of religious entity, but science and logic. Science, this subject, matter, object, that people of the modern world turn towards whenever they seek an answer to any sort of question --is it not like the Gods that people of the old days sought for the answer to their questions?

I think that using science and logic in determinism as an argument against destiny sort of opens up a whole box of fallacies. Even if it is not a God that writes out our lives, but rather our own actions based on a theory of scientific logic, then is that not still 'Destiny'? Is it not still the inability of people to control their lives?

I'm quite happy to consider this to be Destiny, and expect I'll be using this to in arguments with people who don't believe in destiny now :rolleyes: But the question still remains - just how much is predetermined? We've talked about how if we completely understood a person's inner workings, we could predict all his actions. Assuming we could predict all of a person's actions and responses, we remain unable to predict what will happen in the rest of the world - rapidly changing and growing, and also full of other people who we have not accounted for.

I suppose, over the course of a person's lifetime - many years - their own fate as written by themselves far outweighs the power of the world over them. A person who seems destined to dance professionally because of their skills and passion would probably be able to do so at a grand dance school or on their own in a country town. A person who seems destined to be poor because of their poor handling would probably continue to be poor even if they won lotto - just thinking about this now makes me feel good actually. The world suddenly seems to have so much less power over me.

Relating back to the example Hung-Su began with, I too relate to his situation. I grew up in predominantly white communities in Australia and had 1 asian friend for around about a year throughout my entire primary and secondary school education. Yet, upon entering university, I did find myself more drawn to other asians.

This is most likely a result of the influence of my family, the things they taught me, their own personal preferences for food, media, and their general way of raising me --binding me to their culture, and so, binding me to others like me --asians.

However, if we think about it that way, it still remains that I had no choice in my 'choosing' of friends. Then have I not also fulfilled my destiny?

Fulfilling is interesting. Maybe I'm being picky, but here you refer to destiny as some kind of goal or end point, some attained state perhaps - rather than a line we walk on, some state that we "be".

Not a criticism, just making me think now. I'm not sure myself if destiny is a point, or a line.

lol this is fun ^_^

#11 Spring Sakura

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 06:40 AM

We'll see about that! :P


I'm quite happy to consider this to be Destiny, and expect I'll be using this to in arguments with people who don't believe in destiny now :rolleyes: But the question still remains - just how much is predetermined? We've talked about how if we completely understood a person's inner workings, we could predict all his actions. Assuming we could predict all of a person's actions and responses, we remain unable to predict what will happen in the rest of the world - rapidly changing and growing, and also full of other people who we have not accounted for.

I suppose, over the course of a person's lifetime - many years - their own fate as written by themselves far outweighs the power of the world over them. A person who seems destined to dance professionally because of their skills and passion would probably be able to do so at a grand dance school or on their own in a country town. A person who seems destined to be poor because of their poor handling would probably continue to be poor even if they won lotto - just thinking about this now makes me feel good actually. The world suddenly seems to have so much less power over me.


Fulfilling is interesting. Maybe I'm being picky, but here you refer to destiny as some kind of goal or end point, some attained state perhaps - rather than a line we walk on, some state that we "be".

Not a criticism, just making me think now. I'm not sure myself if destiny is a point, or a line.

lol this is fun ^_^



I agree, this is fun xD --omg...does that make us like uber nerds or something?

Okay, you make a very valid point --I do think of destiny as a destination, I guess it's very common? I mean, when people generally refer to destiny they often refer to something that has been achieved, or will be achieved. That being said, it can be viewed as a line can't it? Which I think is a wonderful way of thought!

A line, or a road pre-paved, made from predisposition. Not a destination, but an ongoing series of preordained events. I really like it --it sorta gives me like that strange feeling that it must lead to a whole new maze but to be honest, I can't put my finger on it haha. It's such a pretty feeling.

Back to the idea of how much of our lives are preordained, I think it is only human nature to feel disturbed by such a thought (though at times, hypocritically enough, it can be such comfort). I think our ideas of destiny cannot help but be connected to the way in which we deal with our lives psychologically. Often, we hesitate to say that everything we have achieved is predestined rather than born from our free choices and efforts, yet often when bad things happen that are out of our control --we favour the idea that it was 'meant to be' --and suddenly lack of control is favoured.

Naturally enough, say a terrible accident happens to a person you care about, you do not want to feel like you could have stopped it, that it was somehow avoidable had someone, or even yourself done something different, said something different. It is then, much more comforting to rely on this unknown idea of chance, destiny, fate. And yet, if you've spent hours upon hours on a task, which you inevitably achieve, ie. building an intricately detailed modern ship, you would perhaps prefer to credit it to your abilities, skills and efforts rather than luck, chance, destiny or fate.

All that being said, it is very likely that each person's lives is preordained alot. Maybe 8/10 events are 'destined' ---whether by supernatural or scientific/logical means.
You act a certain way because of the influence of your life, of the people you meet, of the environments you encounter.
You think a certain way also because of those reasons.

Perhaps you may do something out of character from time to time ---which results in so called 'unpredictable' results, but no doubt this sudden change of character must have been inspired by something or someone. Therefore, hasn't this sudden change also be pre-ordained?

Of course, even I don't really like the idea of everything being pre-decided by something I have no control over. It is only natural, which is why I said 8/10 as opposed to 10/10.
But perhaps this is the reason there is so much doubt over the idea of destiny? Who wants to believe they have no choice in what happens? Of course nobody does.

However, at the same time, does that mean we should all sit back and merely allow the environment to act upon us? I think not, because I think destiny does not really force us to relinguish control of our lives. It must be some sort of interactive system.

A man who is born poor will remain poor if he does nothing, and yet if he does something he may better his circumstances.
At the same time, even if he tries hard, perhaps he will still achieve no more than he originally began with. Perhaps destiny is made up events linked by choices, where each choice leads to a particular line of other events. For instance, for one man his desire to better his circumstances may lead him to powerful people, and for another, not so much, which then determines whether or not he may succeed --it leads him to his destiny, or destined road of life.

But what determines these events or how they unfold? I hestitate to say chance, for that sort of cancels out whole idea of destiny altogether.
I suppose what determines these events are other events, things that occur in circumstance and environment. In the example presented of a poor man, perhaps one frequents a nearby cafe that a powerful person frequents, and for the other, he doesn't because it isn't nearby or he never paid attention to it. We could say that may be a result of chance but is it chance or simply the way the brain is wired. Behaviorism suggests that humans are always affected by situation and environment. Humans have learnt through our evolution that convenience is beneficial --so if there is a cafe that is convenient to it, we will visit it, if it is not, we will not.

One could say then is it not chance that the cafe was built closer to poor guy 1 and not poor guy 2? But the owner/builder is also human no? Also subject to environmental and situational influences --does that not suggest another link, another pre'destined' event? He was 'destined' to build a cafe there because of the things and people that surrounded him, because of the events in his life etc.

In these messy paragraphs I'm sorta trying to explain my theory of destiny being a result of this interactive system between humans and their environments and again those humans on other humans who are in turn affected by their environments. Actions predestined by other actions, predestined by circumstances, predestined by others who are also subject to the same predisposition creators.

lol --It's so messy isn't it? But I love the mess of philosophy --it's sort of like a crazy, wonderful symphony of thought to me. :P

ps. sorry I'm making you wade through this ocean of disorganized thought lol

#12 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:03 PM

I think destiny is a line.
A point would indicate that it all ends at some point.
Even if there's nothing left of the world, time still goes on.

Plus, every little action would be fulfilling the "destiny" of that person,
So really, if it were a point, it would be a bunch of points lined up.
And whats a continuous stream of overlapping points? A line.

#13 Cori

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:07 PM

I can't argue well enough upon this topic, but I want to add onto the topic discussion.

What do you think about the prediction of the end of the world on the day of Dec. 21, 2012?

#14 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:09 PM

^ I think that the end has been predicted too many times & failed for me to ever believe it.

#15 dalilvietplaya

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 07:43 AM

I can't argue well enough upon this topic, but I want to add onto the topic discussion.

What do you think about the prediction of the end of the world on the day of Dec. 21, 2012?


According to the calendar used by the ancient civilisation of the Mayans is due to come to an end in December 2012 due to another planet (Nibiru) colliding into ours. But if this were true, we would be able to track this planet wouldn't we? :)




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