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How much of your life is predetermined and unchangeable?


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#16 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 10:32 AM

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This seems really off topic :0

#17 Kung Fu Hung-Su

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 12:41 AM

I agree, this is fun xD --omg...does that make us like uber nerds or something?

Okay, you make a very valid point --I do think of destiny as a destination, I guess it's very common? I mean, when people generally refer to destiny they often refer to something that has been achieved, or will be achieved. That being said, it can be viewed as a line can't it? Which I think is a wonderful way of thought!

A line, or a road pre-paved, made from predisposition. Not a destination, but an ongoing series of preordained events. I really like it --it sorta gives me like that strange feeling that it must lead to a whole new maze but to be honest, I can't put my finger on it haha. It's such a pretty feeling.

HAHA I KNOW RIGHT?! I feel all happy and fuzzy ^_^

Back to the idea of how much of our lives are preordained, I think it is only human nature to feel disturbed by such a thought (though at times, hypocritically enough, it can be such comfort). I think our ideas of destiny cannot help but be connected to the way in which we deal with our lives psychologically. Often, we hesitate to say that everything we have achieved is predestined rather than born from our free choices and efforts, yet often when bad things happen that are out of our control --we favour the idea that it was 'meant to be' --and suddenly lack of control is favoured.

Naturally enough, say a terrible accident happens to a person you care about, you do not want to feel like you could have stopped it, that it was somehow avoidable had someone, or even yourself done something different, said something different. It is then, much more comforting to rely on this unknown idea of chance, destiny, fate. And yet, if you've spent hours upon hours on a task, which you inevitably achieve, ie. building an intricately detailed modern ship, you would perhaps prefer to credit it to your abilities, skills and efforts rather than luck, chance, destiny or fate.

All that being said, it is very likely that each person's lives is preordained alot. Maybe 8/10 events are 'destined' ---whether by supernatural or scientific/logical means.
You act a certain way because of the influence of your life, of the people you meet, of the environments you encounter.
You think a certain way also because of those reasons.

Perhaps you may do something out of character from time to time ---which results in so called 'unpredictable' results, but no doubt this sudden change of character must have been inspired by something or someone. Therefore, hasn't this sudden change also be pre-ordained?

Of course, even I don't really like the idea of everything being pre-decided by something I have no control over. It is only natural, which is why I said 8/10 as opposed to 10/10.
But perhaps this is the reason there is so much doubt over the idea of destiny? Who wants to believe they have no choice in what happens? Of course nobody does.

However, at the same time, does that mean we should all sit back and merely allow the environment to act upon us? I think not, because I think destiny does not really force us to relinguish control of our lives. It must be some sort of interactive system.

A man who is born poor will remain poor if he does nothing, and yet if he does something he may better his circumstances.
At the same time, even if he tries hard, perhaps he will still achieve no more than he originally began with. Perhaps destiny is made up events linked by choices, where each choice leads to a particular line of other events. For instance, for one man his desire to better his circumstances may lead him to powerful people, and for another, not so much, which then determines whether or not he may succeed --it leads him to his destiny, or destined road of life.

But what determines these events or how they unfold? I hestitate to say chance, for that sort of cancels out whole idea of destiny altogether.
I suppose what determines these events are other events, things that occur in circumstance and environment. In the example presented of a poor man, perhaps one frequents a nearby cafe that a powerful person frequents, and for the other, he doesn't because it isn't nearby or he never paid attention to it. We could say that may be a result of chance but is it chance or simply the way the brain is wired. Behaviorism suggests that humans are always affected by situation and environment. Humans have learnt through our evolution that convenience is beneficial --so if there is a cafe that is convenient to it, we will visit it, if it is not, we will not.

One could say then is it not chance that the cafe was built closer to poor guy 1 and not poor guy 2? But the owner/builder is also human no? Also subject to environmental and situational influences --does that not suggest another link, another pre'destined' event? He was 'destined' to build a cafe there because of the things and people that surrounded him, because of the events in his life etc.

In these messy paragraphs I'm sorta trying to explain my theory of destiny being a result of this interactive system between humans and their environments and again those humans on other humans who are in turn affected by their environments. Actions predestined by other actions, predestined by circumstances, predestined by others who are also subject to the same predisposition creators.

lol --It's so messy isn't it? But I love the mess of philosophy --it's sort of like a crazy, wonderful symphony of thought to me. :D

ps. sorry I'm making you wade through this ocean of disorganized thought lol

Um, yes, I'm having quite a bit of trouble wading through this hahaha. You posted this like a week ago and I'm still having trouble coming up with a worthy answer haha. But you're so right actually. Humans love to think of our achievements and blessings and success as being the result of our own hardship, and passing off our woes as the natural way of things and so on. It reminds me of this story
The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant. A lot of what i want to say is in that story, but i'll sum here for those who don't want to read it hehe.
I don't believe that there is any natural course of things, only things that for the time being, are more powerful than us.

We were discussing a bit in the "Future evolution of humans" thread as well - that no one can say what is good, no one can prove that something is evil in the universal scheme of things. The world can only punish criminals because the world has a bigger stick than the criminals do. Something like old age, is an enemy that has a bigger stick than humanity does. Natural disasters and such, they've just got a bigger stick than we do - for the time being. The strength of a person's will is quite staggering though. Just as it is staggering how a person who doesn't care, who doesn't know, who can't do anything - can totally mess everything up even if the world throws miracles at them - a person can seemingly create miracles through the strength of his will even if the world seemingly pulls the floor out from underneath him. Like Genghis Khan getting imprisoned seemingly for life but getting out and becoming one of the greatest military leaders in history.

I understand that the world and humans in it are a mess...but I believe firmly now that our own will is stronger. hehe our destiny almost always transcends any mess and chaos the world throws at us. Save for being shot for our pocket money when we wander out one lonely night or something :lol:

I think destiny is a line.
A point would indicate that it all ends at some point.
Even if there's nothing left of the world, time still goes on.

Plus, every little action would be fulfilling the "destiny" of that person,
So really, if it were a point, it would be a bunch of points lined up.
And whats a continuous stream of overlapping points? A line.

I didn't really think of it that way haha. More about what a destiny might be - like being destined for greatness in something. You can't just be great for one instant - you have to be great for a while. If you're destined to meet and marry someone wonderful, you can't marry someone and divorce the next day - gotta be married for a while! Destinies are paths to walk on that have better scenery than the paths we're already on. And with lots of your favourite restaurants and your favourite music playing all the time ^_^

I can't argue well enough upon this topic, but I want to add onto the topic discussion.

What do you think about the prediction of the end of the world on the day of Dec. 21, 2012?

lol oh dear. I work at Geoscience Australia, we have a whole department here whose only work is watching for earthquakes, tsunamis and the like. Consensus is:

"It's highly unlikely. :]" hehe

#18 Cori

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 08:48 AM

This seems really off topic :0

I thought it would be close to the sudject because wouldn't that mean it's a predetermined thing?

#19 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:20 AM

^Yeah, I can see how it fits, but then I noticed it sorta was a topic on its own, thought they're related.
Its a good topic though, it should have its own thread =D (If it already does, I havent noticed, been inactive for a while D=)


to Hungsu,

Well then I'd have to say destiny doesn't exist if thats how you view destiny.
Theres no scripture or supreme force that cares about every little individual person,
And has some sort of thought out plan for them.

Everything that ever happens to you, you could easily say it was "destined",
Even if you were married for only 5 minutes, you were still technically "destined"
to be married for 5 minutes, no? Just because it happened.
I am "destined" to type out this next sentence, destined to have a shower in the morning,
destined to be bored at some point, destined to walk somewhere, ect.
I don't think there's a grand plan.
I think people are only destined to have a life & then die eventually
and that a lot of weird stuff happens in between,
a lot of it that means NOTHING to anyone but who it happens to.
It wasn't plotted out by a God,
Everything that happens doesn't always have a deeper meaning to a bigger picture,
And basically I still think Determinism is the best way to say how people go through life.

Edited by --e n k y o r i*, 17 January 2010 - 11:31 AM.


#20 Kung Fu Hung-Su

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:01 AM

to Hungsu,

Well then I'd have to say destiny doesn't exist if thats how you view destiny.
Theres no scripture or supreme force that cares about every little individual person,
And has some sort of thought out plan for them.

Everything that ever happens to you, you could easily say it was "destined",
Even if you were married for only 5 minutes, you were still technically "destined"
to be married for 5 minutes, no? Just because it happened.
I am "destined" to type out this next sentence, destined to have a shower in the morning,
destined to be bored at some point, destined to walk somewhere, ect.
I don't think there's a grand plan.
I think people are only destined to have a life & then die eventually
and that a lot of weird stuff happens in between,
a lot of it that means NOTHING to anyone but who it happens to.
It wasn't plotted out by a God,
Everything that happens doesn't always have a deeper meaning to a bigger picture,
And basically I still think Determinism is the best way to say how people go through life.


haha i guess so :] (this is quite possibly the most thoughtless post I've made in this subforum) hahaha.

#21 kitzutsuita

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:19 PM

How come I never found this forum before? :) So many interesting topics!

On to the idea of destiny:

I believe the idea of destiny.

Per say, you want to major in biochem. You find it too hard, so you then major in computer science, you also find it too hard.
Then you change to interior design, but that takes too long! So finally, the only option you have left is business.
10 years from now, as a successful business owner, you look back and told yourself that you are destined to be in business since all the other majors didn't work out for you.

However, taken apart--- biochem is not a hard major, it just requires a lot of studies. BUt since there are other options, people tend to move toward the easier one.
Computer science, it is also not hard, just requires dedication and time... again other options are available.. so they picked interior design, however this major requires a strict fall to spring class schedule so it takes them extra long to pursue... then their only option left is to go into business.

Don't you think that its kind of pre destined in a way? If one of the orders was different such as taking business first, then ending up with interior design... wouldn't that mean that they are destined to be interior designers? But since they chose the specific order of the major changes, one could also argue that they had no option so that is not really destiny, but then again, isn't destiny a set of events or consequences that leads you to that point in life where you called it "destined to be?"

hm...........! It is so hard for me to put in words what I want to get across! Ahh.. if only these discussions happen in real life. Most people these days, don't care much about these topics, at least where i live they don't, hah!

#22 --e n k y o r i*

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:51 PM

^ Not really, because a lot of people end up with a crap result.
Good and bad things happen. Therefore since they seem to happen equally
(Actually, not even equally... theres more poor people in the world. Way more)
& happens for seemingly no ~deep~ reason, I wouldn't call it destiny.
The person could have easily decided on business and then failed and became homeless. It happens.

"one could also argue that they had no option so that is not really destiny"
Glad you didn't overlook that in favour of your opinion.
That's basically Determinism, which I'm going with haha.
I understand where you're coming from but I find it hard
To just believe that good things only happen cause of some pre-destined divination,
When alll of the wealthy people in this world are only as wealthy as they are
Because we suck third world countries dry of their money
and put their countries in debt to our gluttonous countries.

Actually, I sort of agree with you in a way though.
How you said everything that happens comes to the point we call "destined".
But then that depends on your definition of destiny.
If you think of it as only point A & point B without deeper meaning, then yes I agree.
If you think of it as somethign granted to you from some sort of conscious force, then no.

Edited by --e n k y o r i*, 11 February 2010 - 11:54 PM.


#23 *c o n v e r s e

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 04:12 PM

Nice topic :hug:

I'm kinda stuck in the middle. I believe in predetermined events but at the same time, I also think its just a bunch of nonsense.

I believe in it because of deja vu. Doesn't deja vu indicate some kind of predetermination?

#24 dreamsicles

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:46 AM

this is a pretty interesting topic here.

well, i too feel that i am kinda stuck in the middle, since in life there are things that we can make our choices, and there are also things that we can't.
like whether to go out or not, that you can decide. but what is going to happen next, is something you cannot decide. you might be able to foresee what is going to happen and decides to prevent it, but you wont know by preventing, what other things might happen. this is a kind of question that is always ask. you can decide to die now, but can you decide where will you be after death? hell? heaven? or reduce to nothingness? to me, sometimes destiny do plays a part, but it is more like a point to push you towards something. everything can be predetermined, but nothing can be left unchange imo. like airforce mentioned, you cant choose what you are born as, but you can choose what do you want to do. you will change your path accordingly to what you want currently, so destiny don really plays much here, unless of course you want to think that you are also "destined" to make the change of things. if everything is predestined, what is the point of changing things for a better life? its like if you are destined to be poor, what for you work hard and earn a few millions and after a few years you went bankrupt in stock exchange and go back to square one.

to me, nothing is predetermined. even if destiny do plays a part in our life, it will change accordingly, since we will always strive to be better every time.
to me, destiny is like a vision that push you for the better so that you would not want things to end that way or a target for you to strive and achieve.

cant say that destiny and fate is bullcrap, but we cant say that it existed also.

we cannot choose what we are born as
we can choose for the better or the worse, rather than relying on "destiny" to decide for us.
we can even choose when to die
in the end it is all up to us to decide our life.

and e.g would be like this:
you are destined to get into an accident (destiny comes into account in a sense that it is unavoidable)
you choose to live on or to give up on life (a decision you have to make on your own will)


i think thats all i have to say and why do i feel like this sounds like a political/religious talk?

#25 Airforce

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 06:41 AM

i think thats all i have to say and why do i feel like this sounds like a political/religious talk?

Cos it kinda is, end of the day, no one knows the answer as to whether life is predetermined or what not, it's a matter of personal opinions and beliefs. Those who THINK they know with certainty one of the other are just plain ignorant.




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