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#31 Porridge

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:29 AM

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mmm... im a buddhist, so i dont know what the bible syas, but i think its wrong to judge people on what sex they "like". it is unfair on them, and homosexuals should be treated as normal, and equal peole =/, but thats just my opinion =/

#32 Kat

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 07:20 PM

Before I continue, let me thank you Kat for providing such an interesting discussion. I truly appreciate the time and effort you've made in your posts. It's ones like these that truly make creating the Serious Discussion forum worth it.


In response to the "is it really that important?" point you made: this one line of the Bible has the potential to be extremely explosive if interpreted in a certain way. Incidentally, this interpretation seems to be the most common one. In the original Hebrew edition, I think that the part that says "that is detestable" can be interpreted in two ways.
1. This is a major sin against God.
2. This is simply one of those laws for the Jewish people, sort of like the demands for kosher food.

The first interpretation means it's pretty significant.

You do have a point though. Supposedly (from what I've heard, I'm not exactly a good Bible reader) Leviticus was a black sheep in the Bible. I think as far as the prophets go, he's one of the lower ones. The argument that if Jesus hasn't said it, it's not important is one that makes sense. However, all of the books of the Bible must be treated as the truth (even if there are varying degrees of importance) if one truly believes in the divinity of the Bible. One less hardline interpretation is that homosexual marriage isn't exactly a major sin since it hasn't been reiterated as such by the Bible. Of course, I can always be proven wrong if someone finds another line condemning gay marriage. I can feel a somewhat more liberal shift in my opinions right now. However, I still believe that homosexuals should not be put under the label of "marriage." Due to the uncertain nature of the interpretation of this line, I really cannot have such a hardline stance against homosexual marriage either.

According to the separation of church and state, religion should have no role in the decision of politicians. As a result, some non-religious arguments must be given to support your stance. I still stand by my initial post in this thread. However, I believe that this religious debate over Leviticus 18:22 is important in shaping the opinions of a vast majority of the population.

I'm not sure if this post can as easily be responded to as my previous posts since I'm not really expressing a hardline argument in this one. If you can, by all means, please do. But if someone else goes on another tangent, I won't mind.

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You are correct in this being a more difficult post to respond to however you bring up something that has not been mentioned before I believe: The seperation of church and state. Now I know that many people on this forum either live in Canada, or in another country other than the United States, therefore, though I have a decent idea of how everything runs in some countries, I'm not sure exactly how they address the idea of seperation of church and state, so I will address it as I see it, from the American point of view.

You say that according to the separation of church and state, religion should have no role in the decision that happen in politics, however this sadly can be further from the truth. I continiously try to push for people to give me intelligent non-religious based reasons for banning gay marriage, because the best that they can usually come up with is that in allowing gays to marry you are opening the door for cousins to marry, and that whole mess that is inscest. And that isn't exactly the best arguement because it can be shut down by pointing out the obvious disorders that come from inbreeding. The point is, I really can't think of any other non-religion based reason to ban gay marriage.

That's where the problem begins, with lack of reasonable support. With that in mind, and the idea that America is a Christian country anyway, people contiously try to push religion on this case. Also one has to consider the fact that laws are based on morals, and morals come from religion. So in a Christian nation of course you would have Christian laws.

I believe entirely in seperation of church and state, however the people arguing against gay marriage seem to forget that at times. This can be noted since they always bring religion up, and even America's "wonderful" president seems to forget the majority of the world when issues involving religion comes up. They really have no other hope but saying that the bible says it so it must be right, and since America is prodominatly outspoken Christians everyone else is silenced and can not say that their "book of worship" says that it is alright to be homosexual, because "that isn't the right religion." My book of worship says it's alright, but I'm wiccan so I'm automatically evil anyway in their eyes.

The point I'm trying to make, and I'm not sure how clear it is since I'm like half asleep as I type this but I have to be up anyway so I might as well finish, is though the idea of seperation of church and state is there, it isn't enforced and as long as there is no other proof but religious text that says homosexuality is wrong it will always be argued from that point of view. And honestly I think the worst part is that some of the activists for the gay movement are starting to realize that it's almost futile to change someone's opinion when it's so founded in religion, that they start to not care or try to fight back. It gets tiring after awhile to say "seperation of church and state" or "I'm not catholic so I don't have to follow your religion" so you just kind of stop. I'm not sure if this will be at all respondable to since it doesn't really attack anything, or anything really debatable but if you, or someone feels like something is worth it go ahead. Or else hopefully someone will bring up a rather interesting point that I haven't heard yet, or someone will go off on a tangent.

On a slightly different note for anyone who cares, yesterday (4-13) was the national day of silence (in the US). This is a day where, if you participate, you don't talk for the entire school day to show what harrasment does in silenting people, whether it be homosexuals or any other minority, though it's mostly for homosexuals. And on that same day, Connecticut, where I live, based the civil unions bill saying basically what Coolin said should happen in his first post, in it's not called marriage, because marriage is between a man and a woman, but you get the same benefits as a married couple can get. So I'm very happy for that to be passed.

#33 Coolin

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:31 PM

In Canada, I cannot recall any explicit statement about the separation of church and state. But we have one implicity.

Anyway, there is supposed to be a separation between church and state, but the United States (and most western nations where this issue is being hotly debated) is also a democracy. As a result, the beliefs of the people must be taken into account. If, say, 70% of the American people wish to make gay marriage illegal, then I believe that it should be. It doesn't matter if they base this opinion on their religion or through deep philosophical discussion. That's how democracy works.

Contrary to what you said, I believe that it is possible to find reasons against homosexuality without the use of religion. I have expressed some of my non-religious arguments against gay marriage in my first post on this thread. Homosexuals cannot have children, and a married homosexual couple really doesn't do anything productive for the species. That is not to say that homosexuality should be outlawed, but heterosexual couples should be given special recognition for their contributions to furthering our species. That special recognition is called marriage. I believe the label of marriage is sacred and should thus be only applied to heterosexual couples. Also, there is the argument about if no distinction is made between homosexual and heterosexual marriage, children will grow up homosexual in increasing amounts, leading to a significant drop in population.

Also about your statement that the best people can muster up is that homosexual marriage opens the door to incest. Yes, I agree that this argument is horrible. However, one much more applicable argument is that homosexual marriage opens the door to polygamy. After all, the proponents of gay marriage say that all people are free to marry, and that the definition of marriage should be relaxed. What's there to stop one man from marrying twenty women? After all, if they all agree, it should be legal shouldn't it? Surely we cannot discriminate against people who want to marry more than one person...

As for the bill in Connecticut, I fully agree with that. We should give all couples the same legal rights. And in Canada, or at least in the province of Alberta where I live, this has been the law for a while.

#34 Kat

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 01:53 PM

Homosexuals cannot have children, and a married homosexual couple really doesn't do anything productive for the species. That is not to say that homosexuality should be outlawed, but heterosexual couples should be given special recognition for their contributions to furthering our species. That special recognition is called marriage. I believe the label of marriage is sacred and should thus be only applied to heterosexual couples. Also, there is the argument about if no distinction is made between homosexual and heterosexual marriage, children will grow up homosexual in increasing amounts, leading to a significant drop in population....

...Also about your statement that the best people can muster up is that homosexual marriage opens the door to incest. Yes, I agree that this argument is horrible. However, one much more applicable argument is that homosexual marriage opens the door to polygamy. After all, the proponents of gay marriage say that all people are free to marry, and that the definition of marriage should be relaxed. What's there to stop one man from marrying twenty women? After all, if they all agree, it should be legal shouldn't it? Surely we cannot discriminate against people who want to marry more than one person...

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I seem to see that what you are saying is that a marriage is only sacred when it further betters the species, but what about heterosexual couples who can not procreate whether it be because one of them is infertile, or because they have become to old? Will they be allowed to be part of "marriage"? Sure some heterosexual couples contribute to society by giving birth, but a portion of heterosexuals either can't, or don't, contribute and yet they are still able to be called a marriage.

If your definition of a marriage is the procreation segment than I think before every marriage of a heterosexual couple, the couple should be sat down, given a physical examination to see if either of them are sterile and then asked how long they intend to wait until children are to be made. If the couple is unable to have children they can still be married, however their marriage will not be called marriage, it must be put under the catagory that homosexuals are put under. As for the people who are fertile but do not want children as of yet they will be given a choice that says if they marry now but don't have children in however many years, let's say five, then their marriage will be placed under the catagory with the infertile and the homosexuals until they give birth to a child. If they get married and have the child in the first five years of marriage then they can be called a married couple. That is what I see would be fair, not only to homosexuals, but it also makes everyone equal, and doesn't just discriminate homosexuals, but everyone who cannot have children.

As for it leading to pologamy, sure why not? Let's not discriminate against everyone! If they all agree then go ahead! I would love to see how long a man could put up with twenty women in the same house with him 24/7. I think watching him drive himself insane when he realizes just how hard it is, would make great reality television.

In all honesty I don't think a man would want to marry more than maybe two or three women, or a woman would want to marry more than two or three men, if only for the sharing purpose and having to deal with three different people, and having to please three different people. I mean sure some people can date more than one person, I myself have done such a thing, but if you were going to go into a marriage you would take a lot more into consideration, and you might come to realize that you don't love this one person that you are with quite as deeply as you love the other person you are with, and that alone may stop the marriage.

I too share the sentiment that marriage is a sacred thing, however not for the same reasons. I think you shouldn't get married if you aren't utterly and totally in love, romantic to be sure but still my opinion. Some people say homosexuals cannot be in love with each other because they are the same gender, but what they don't always remember is that girls and guys both have a mind, and it may be the mind that the person is attracted to, and you become so attracted to that mind that you no longer care which body it comes in as long as you stay with that mind for the rest of you life. Marriage, to me, is about the attraction of minds, and the attraction of bodies, it has nothing to do with procreation. There are so many orphanged children out there in the world that sometimes it may be good for a couple to not further the species by having kids of their own, instead further the species by adopting and raising someone elses child, and bringing that child up to the best of their ability. With that view of marriage in my mind I really can't see someone having the same feelings, the exact same feelings, for more than one person.

So I think if they want to have 20 girls and one guy in a relationship, it's more than likely about the sex, sorry to be blunt. Maybe this sounds slightly hypocritical but I can't see how it couldn't be for the sex because I can't see one guy caring so deeply for 20 different women, so much, that he wants to get married to all those woman, and all the women all love each other the same, and they all want to get married to each other. If they want to have sex, go have all the fun you want, but marriage is about love, and in my opinion love is genderless, because love is about the mind, and the mind is genderless.

However, since I don't discriminate in anything, if a couple, maybe a guy and two girls honestly think they are in love with each other so much that they want to marry, and they have talked this over and are ready to deal with everything that will come out of it, and they can support each other finacially then I really see no problem with it. I'm not one to stop love, but there is a distinct difference between a guy and 20 girls with nothing more on their mind then getting it on and maybe a guy and two girls, or a girl and two guys, who are honestly totally and completely in love with each other and want to take it to the next step with marriage. So I don't really see how if gay marriage is legalized could really cause that much of an issue with polygamy, given that idea.

#35 cosmic_avian

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Posted 17 April 2005 - 02:56 PM

i don't hold any negativities towards homosexuals...but i just find it displeasing that they would actually like those of the same gender...

same with bi's...

but really...something happened to them that made them that way...so it's not their fault their gay or lesbian...

i just don't like how some see it as a bad thing...
gay people are nicer than straight guys o.O...

#36 RockWithBoA

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 06:18 AM

I'ld feel disturbed if my friends are homosexuals. I can't seem to stand it when i see people of the same gender loving each other like the way people of different genders do. To me , i think the girl which plays as a guy in the Lesbian relationship is VERY abnormal. Why must she pose as a guy ?
I don't understand why they want to pose as a guy , is it because they want to feel like one ?

Personally , I don't think i can develop feelings for someone of the same gender as mine. But IF this homosexual couple really loves each other, then i have nothing to say. But currently those youngsters who are lesbians or gays are just wrong ,because i dont think they can last for life.

#37 benn

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 03:35 AM

I'ld feel disturbed if my friends are homosexuals. I can't seem to stand it when i see people of the same gender loving each other like the way people of different genders do. To me , i think the girl which plays as a guy in the Lesbian relationship is VERY abnormal. Why must she pose as a guy ?
I don't understand why they want to pose as a guy , is it because they want to feel like one ?

Personally , I don't think i can develop feelings for someone of the same gender as mine. But IF this homosexual couple really loves each other, then i have nothing to say. But currently those youngsters who are lesbians or gays are just wrong ,because i dont think they can last for life.

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how inconsiderate/irresponsible of you to say that!!! you must always think before u say anything and put us self in others shoe!!.......it is not something that they want!........

Edited by benn, 01 May 2005 - 03:36 AM.


#38 cosmic_avian

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 08:06 AM

Being homosexual is not one's choice. Either they were part of the person's genes, or is a developing trait.

Some people can't help being gay/lesbian or bi, so no one can say "it's their fault for being gay/lesbian" and "they're never going to last long"

And for what RockWithBoA had said about the girl acting the guy in a relationship, have you ever considered that those girls just can't fall for a guy? Their genes or whatever is in them prevent them from doing so, so they find girls more attractive.

Not everyone has the same opinion as you.

#39 benn

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 09:09 AM

Being homosexual is not one's choice. Either they were part of the person's genes, or is a developing trait.

Some people can't help being gay/lesbian or bi, so no one can say "it's their fault for being gay/lesbian" and "they're never going to last long"

And for what RockWithBoA had said about the girl acting the guy in a relationship, have you ever considered that those girls just can't fall for a guy? Their genes or whatever is in them prevent them from doing so, so they find girls more attractive.

Not everyone has the same opinion as you.

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yes! i totally agree with you!!!!

#40 Shattered;Koibumi

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 09:42 AM

I personally have nothing wrong with homosexuals, I just dont tend be around them, unless its Daniel, who's my exception.....
Homosexuals have no different relationship from heterosexuals, just that their attraction is toward the same sex and their unability to reproduce. They may have not been put in the situation by choice, cause I was watching an epsiode on Law & Order, a long time ago, and It was more about transvestite's but the story starts out, as the boy trying on his mother's shoes, some kids saw him and started spreading false rumors, thus making him become that...I just have a problem with people who are like in the 5th grade being homosexual. How can you choose to be gay/lesbian or bi at such a young age, it frightens me a bit. Now I am a Christian and being homosexual is a big sin, but it's their choice, I wouldnt want to have to jump when someone tells me to, so if I was a lesbian I wouldnt want anyone to tell me who to love, and how to love them. So the hell with whats right, sin for the one you love. :)


#41 cosmic_avian

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 11:54 AM

What's most important to remember is that people usually aren't born homosexual, it's the experiences that they go through that makes them that make, whether it be bad relationships with the opposite gender or some traumatic events.

Homosexuality is a sin because man and woman are meant to be together, but it's not like any serious christians are homosexual :).

And, the guys that are nicer than most are usually homosexual or not interested in girls o.O. Strange huh?

#42 shexshe

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Posted 01 May 2005 - 03:51 PM

I don't mind people that are lesbian and gay, I guess the reason I find it disgusting because I'm not and it's a completely different then what I would do I guess.

#43 Daenar

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:03 PM

I'm personally quite interested in this topic as this topic of homosexuality and homosexual marriages really affects me, being a Canadian and a Christian myself. Reading through the posts, I've take the quotes of some of the most impacting posts to me so far and I will respond to them from my personal viewpoint. And as a sidenote, currently I'm agreeing with Coolin's standpoint.

But God is against the idea of homosexuals. He said so in the bible.

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Yes, to my knowledge and understanding of the Holy Bible, God does say and imply that He dislikes homosexuality and that Man was not originally created with this desire. As mentioned by several people, there is the argument of what God (through Jesus on earth) directly teaches versuses what prophets or other writers of the Bible say about homosexuality. Basically, there's two views to this: conservative and liberal. Generally, conservative theologians and believers believe the the Word of God is "God-breathed", meaning that the Bible is completely God-inspired and the authors and their writings are inerrant. It is often believed that the fall of Man into sin in the Garden Of Eden led to homosexuality as one of the things that Man now may face as evidence of sin. On the other hand, the liberal view is what somebody questioned. The authors of the Bible may just be writing their own interpretation or ideas of what God wanted. They may even be simply promoting their spiritual ideas and beliefs without God's Word as a foundation. With these two views, I personally have the conservative theological belief of the Bible being God-inspired and that the original text is 100% accurate and without fault. Without going into the issues dealing with all the possible interpretation errors through translation, I do believe that there is enough evidence in the Bible to support the fact that God disagrees with homosexuality, that He did not create homosexuality, and that it is also a sin.

Yeah...I know...but I don't think he's going to hate you and send you to hell, jsut because you're homosexual. It's not your fault...sometimes it's an accident. I think God just doesn't want someone having a relationship or w/e.

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Actually, from a Biblical standpoint, it is your fault. In a sense, you are claiming that God made a mistake, an accident. As a Christian and with the knowledge of the Bible, God is perfect and does not make mistakes.

For all you people who are against it because you are Christian..why should YOUR belief system be forced upon OTHERS?  Also, can you give me the passage of the bible that says God is against homosexuality?  I've never actually seen this for myself.

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One of the most referred-to references is in Genesis 19, with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This was where two angels went to Lot in Sodom. The crowd wanted Lot to introduce the two "men" and so they could have sex with them. Lot offered his two virgin daughters to stop the crowd but they wouldn't have it and wanted the two men. The next day, as Lot and his family escaped, God smote that region; destroying both the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Also with the Leviticus 18:22 passage mentioned earlier. Leviticus 20:13 provides evidence of this as an evil act in God's eyes. It would be a good idea to look these if up if you are genuinely interested in our perspective of this issue. Also, I would suggest that you don't simply just look up these exact passages and the Bible requires a decent background/historical knowledge of author, time that it was written, etc. for a better understand as to how and why it was written the way it was.
As Christians, I don't believe we should be forcing our belief system upon others. Right now, I am not. I am simply sharing my beliefs and opinions on this matter. I am not forcing you to read this or believe what I believe. I'm sharing insight and hoping that you will share your's so that I can better understand and decide for myself what I truly believe to be morally, ethically, and Biblically correct.

See, the thing about your killing example is that killing infringes upon another persons right, a right to live.  What negative effect does a same sex couple have on society?  Besides the fact that people don't accept it.  You know, just half a century ago interracial couples went through the same thing?  No one was willing to accept them.  If a black male and white female were together, they wouldn't even be able to buy a house because people were so against that kind if thinking.  Again, what harm did an interracial couple bring to society?  None.

I do try to see it from a Christian's perspective, but when George W. Bush is stating that he is a Christian, and God doesn't accept same sex marriages, thats when I think it's out of hand.  What ever happened to separation of church and state?  The President blatantly says that he will outlaw same sex marriages because it's God's will, or something to that effect.  Point is, he's using his religious beliefs to enforce a law.  I'm not an expert at the constitution so my argument may be really flawed, but: the first amendment states that there should be no laws respecting any establishment of religion, and that it shouldn't restrict people from exercising whatever religion they choose.  For one thing, isn't the ban on same sex marriages respecting the Christian faith?  Thats a really gray line for me, so I could be wrong (seeing as how it was passed in several states already, heh).  All I'm saying is that by me going by my belief system (to allow same sex couples) I'm not restricting anyone's freedom. 

I've seen rallies where people are holding up signs saying such things as "GOD HATES ****" or "**** are going to burn in hell!" among other things.  I'm wondering is how can people be so totally against this issue, as to start publically claiming that God will condemn them, and also use such prejudiced words?

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I have also seen rallies (where homosexuality is supported) where they have banners that question, challenge, and (the worst thing of all) twist Biblical references and passages to support their right of homosexuality. It's true, they do have a political and social right to be homosexuals. But they are being hypocritical (and arguable so are the anti-homosexuals) in what they and we (generalizations) use to defend our standpoints and rebuke their's. But we do have a freedom of speech and by "publically claiming that God will condemn them" is just expressing this right and sharing what we believe. Personally, I don't agree with this approach. Just because I believe that non-Christians will go to hell, I don't go around saying that and forcing people to convert by threatening them with this.
Homosexuality, or rather homosexual marriages, infringe upon many people's spirituality. Just because this is not politically stated as a crime, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is right to do so. With marriages defined as a "union between a man and a woman under God", this doesn't work. Firstly, homosexual marriages aren't between and man and a woman. Secondly, God does not agree with this Biblically: so how can it be a joining of two people under God and be blessed by God?
With your example of interracial marriages, Christians (as I have taken this perspective so far in this post) are not spiritually troubled (or should not be at least) because this is not a sin. You cannot argue that anywhere in the Bible it says that different races should not marry for the reason that they are of different races. In fact, there are many examples in the Bible where different races married each other (eg. Moses and his wife, Joseph [the dream-interpretor] and his wife, etc.). And just playing the devil's advocate here in response to your question of how does interracial marriages harm society: interracial marriages is one of the leading causes of birth problems and death of the baby and/or the mother because the baby cannot get out. What I mean is biologically, an asian woman may not be able to allow a baby that is mixed to be born as her pelvis cannot stretch wide enough. This is scientifically true, not simply something that I made up, though this is just nothing more than a dumb counterclaim to your question.

mmm... im a buddhist, so i dont know what the bible syas, but i think its wrong to judge people on what sex they "like". it is unfair on them, and homosexuals should be treated as normal, and equal peole :P, but thats just my opinion :P

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Are you not at the same time judging us to judge them as equals? Isn't that a hypocritical statement to some extent? And also with references to "normal" and "equal people", are you also not judging what a normal and equal person may be in the eyes of present-day society?

Being homosexual is not one's choice. Either they were part of the person's genes, or is a developing trait.

Some people can't help being gay/lesbian or bi, so no one can say "it's their fault for being gay/lesbian" and "they're never going to last long"

And for what RockWithBoA had said about the girl acting the guy in a relationship, have you ever considered that those girls just can't fall for a guy? Their genes or whatever is in them prevent them from doing so, so they find girls more attractive.

Not everyone has the same opinion as you.

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Actually, it has yet to be proven scientifically that there is a gene in human DNA that is the cause for homosexual attributes. One of the most breakthrough discoveries of this gene was disproved of as it could not be replicated and the experimental team consisted of two people: the researcher who wrote the articles and books about his experiment, and an assistant. Personally, I agree with those who say that homosexuality is a behaviour that is learned rather than a genetic makeup. Also, I do not personally see homosexuals as "wrong people". We each face our own problems and burdens. But it is when one acts upon these thoughts of homosexuality where I disapprove of it. This is where the sin is, Biblically-speaking. My simple example is this: if (for some vey strange and peculiar reason) rolling your tongue was evil or seen as evil in society. Even though this is a genetic attribute, you do not necessarily have to roll your tongue. You have a sense of control over what you do. One has even more control over behaviours than genetic attributes. With what you said regarding "they find girls more attractive. Not everyone has the same opinion as you". In a relationship, you may find another person completely attractive, but you ultimately have control over what your actions are in response to your feelings, desires, and emotions.

#44 BoasBiatchLeo

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 07:39 PM

I have absolutly nothing wrong with HOMOSECXUALITY, I think it is just their ways of life. I Don't see why people think it is nasty and gross? I mean they are just different there are left handed people in this word ((me included)) do you think we are sick? There are people that are disabled..do you think they are sick? I think it is silly for people to think of Homosexuals as nasty, they just have different kinds of feelings than other people

What annoys me so much is people excuse for disliking homosexuals, a main one is their *RELIGION* "the bible said your going to go to hell"...um okay, I know God didn't teach you to hate people for who they are..did he? I think religion is one of the main reasons why people dislike homosexuals because they were taught that they were wrong for being that way..and it gets passed down through generations. I hate how people say "The Bible this, the Bible that"..MAN created the bible...yes they can be WRONG! and that's people's escapegoat/reasoning for disliking homosexuals because they really don't have a reason but what they were taught through parents and religion.

what is good, is that....as the years go by people are getting more and more open to the idea of *homosexuality* being okay...look at Korea for an example: they have a group called *Lady* that are Transgender, and they are excepted among people. U.S has shown more open sexualities on t.v./movies and even around all of us....I think it's really good that people are starting to not have to hide themselves in fear of what people think of them....I wish people will hve their experience with homosexuals before believing that they are evil bad gross from their religion and parents influences..because they are like everyone else, they just like different types...completely fine with me :D

#45 silverose

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    mmm... BoA's cute

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 10:10 PM

it doesn't matter as long as they don't cause havoc on society, and by havoc i mean serious crime like killing people and theft and stuff..

everyone's entitled to express themselves as long as it's appropriate...

and i feel that way about gay marriage too...if they wanna get married they should be allowed to...it's not like all married gay couples are going to go around slaughtering ppl or something...as long as none of that happens there's nothing wrong with homosexual people or homosexuals getting married.




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