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#76 vagabond

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:31 AM

Japan have made a official apology about what they did during second world war. But China seems to have dismised it since it was more of a european apology rather then a japanese one. It was Japans prime minister that gave it during the celebrations of the end of WW2 in that region. So a apology was made just that some countries wont accept it. It is similar to China in a way never appologies properly to what they did neither have Russia.

#77 JWu

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:12 AM

So a apology was made just that some countries wont accept it. It is similar to China in a way never appologies properly to what they did neither have Russia.

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Russia?

There's nothing wrong with honoring dead war criminals? Of course not, in terms of the law. But that just hurts the feelings of a whole nation, and brings back hatred that is going away.

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Technically, George Washington and the rest of the Revolutionary Army are war criminals, at least to the British government. <_<

Of course the bomb wasn't necessary to win the war. If there wasn't the bomb, there would be an invasion of Tokyo. The japanese started drafting kids into the army, and i'm sure the fire bombing would have continued.
And besides you later mentioned to forget emotion right? Eisenhower didn't say this DURING the war, when he would be faced with sending soldiers to their deaths, a D-Day 2. With the bomb, America shortened the length of the war, at the cost of civilian life. If they had not, the continuing war would mean more lives lost in all the countries occupied by Japan, more crimes, and more American life lost. The fact that they had second thoughts about dropping the bomb shows that they weren't as ruthless as the Japanese.

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To be fair, we have the benefit of hindsight. As we are not in that situation and environment, it is not fair for us to judge their decisions. However, I fully believe that atomic weapons were not necessary to win "the war."

American airpower dominated the skies. Japan lost an entire carrier fleet at the Battle of midway to an inferior American force (I say inferior because Japan had superior numbers in terms of number of naval vessels) because of Vice Admiral Nagumo's incompetence and foolish assumption that he was invincible. Islands were being taken back left and right. The Japanese were pushed back to their home islands save for a few troops here and there on a few strips of land. B-29 firebombing of Tokyo killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians and destroyed 17 square miles of the city to ashes. The tactic was repeated among many other major and moderate cities across the Japanese mainlands. (I don't remember the number of cities firebombed).

Was this crude-version of napalm effective? Certainly so. Entire urban sectors destroyed, hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, and oh! the Japanese anti-aircraft fire was largely ineffective. There was only about a 2% loss of B-29s due to enemy fire in the firebomb campaign. So, that's a little more than a 100 aircraft lost to the over 7,000 B-29s that flew during the campaign.

Again, highly effective tactics. The Japanese would have had no choice but to surrender. How could they not? If firebombing continued, the Japanese people would have been wiped out. They had no defense against the B-29s, and the remainder of their air/naval forces were no match for the rebuilt US fleet. (Yes, granted, kamikaze Japanese fighters inflicted a lot of destruction on the US fleet).

The use of the a-bomb was not necessary.

On the other hand, by demonstrating that the US had the capability, and the will, to use atomic weapons on a civilian target, a state of cold war was set with Russia. Both sides built up their nuclear stockpile and set off a deadly chain of "nuclear deterrence," essentially a time bomb waiting to happen. Deterrence would never have worked if "the ultimate weapon" had not been tested on a population.

And it's come 'round to bite us in the ass.

We're dismantling our outmoded nukes and IAE teams have been steadfastedly dismantling whatever was in the old Soviet arsenal. We're trying to stop other countries (a la Iran) from obtaining nuclear weapons. Essentially, "we had ours, but you can't have yours," and a "we want to fix our mistakes," sort of thinking.

You're most AMAZING point. Oh, so the rape occurs after the war? when the soldiers go back to their hometown? Even if it did occur after the war, does that make it ok? "HEY WARS OVER, RAPE AWAY!" I hope you didn't think too much about this one, or you weren't dead-set on including it in your argument. This actually pissed me off. THANKS

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Totally right.

I'd like to add that rape is prevalent even in a "civilized post-modern" society like ours. Base human instincts + stupid people = bad combination.

However, what the Japanese soldiers did (slicing a third term pregnant woman's belly, removing the baby, killing that baby first, then her), (raping a baby by using a sword to make the two holes into one), (massive slaughter of the elderly, the infirm, the women, and the children) is worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews. Yes, they never had concentration camps that were on par with Auschwitz, but what the Nazis did pales in comparison with the acts of the Japanese troops.

Questioning the point questions the text in article. Does history not match up to your recollection of what happened? I'm sorry. Go read the TIME article and get back to me. The men were NOT INFORMED, however they did suspect it (in the article). The mix of emotions you describe was also mentioned in this article. The article mentioned that they had mixed emotions. Happy that the war would be over, and american lives would be saved, yet horror in the fact that they had just killed so many people.

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I also read that Time article, and yeah, you're right. They were not "officially" told that they were dropping an atomic weapon.

Okay...after reading this discussion I'd like to offer my two cents...the chinese are communists...and therefore...promote the idea of communism and therefore teach their generations that capitalism and democracy are no-good.

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Communism is a failure. There never was nor will there ever be, a pure communist state. It's an ideal textbook scenario, but one that's not practical for use in the world at large. China is NOT currently a communist state. It is classified as a "police state" (or it was at least 5 years ago). Now, it's certainly taken steps toward becoming a productive, capitalistic society.

Therefore, instead of trying to teach a better understanding of the world to their next generation, they promote the idea of communism and pretty much shun and bias their information.

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And the US is no different? I'll give you an example. The textbooks that I used when I was in elementary school stated that Johannes Gutenburg invented the printing press. Now, in the 21st century, that is known as an entirely false statement. Printing was invented in China in the 8th or 9th century. Movable type was invented, again by the Chinese, a few centuries later. Gutenburg merely took the next step and used metal alloys. There's also discussion about how credit is due to other individuals who helped in Gutenburg's use of metal.

Is that not biased history?

Is history not biased in itself? History is an account of the past, written by the victors. To know true history, one has to read both sides (if they still exist).

Yes, yes, you're not just talking about history. Why are Americans thought of as "exceedingly arrogant" by practically every other country on the Earth? Because most Americans think of the US as "the center of the universe." How many Americans can name every single province in Canada? (I surely can't.) How many Americans know where Uruguay is? (it does not count if you live in California and have taken Spanish-language courses in school) Where the UAE is? Who the Kuomintang are?

To be honest, there are only three reasons why China wants back Taiwan.
1. So they can control the Taiwanese Straight and position military vessels there
2. So that it would eliminate 1 of the 3 "American-controlled" countries that are threats to Chinese National Security
3. *The biggest reason* Because the Americans use Taiwan to spy on China

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First of all, it's a strait not a straight.

Oh come on. Do you know anything about history? Let me give you a little insight. There was a little thing that people call a "civil war" between Nationalist forces led by Chiang Kai-Shek and rebel Communist forces (well I use forces as a loose term since they were mostly PEASANTS!) led by Mao Zedong. Well, to make matters short, the KMT lost. (Kuomintang, pronounced Guo-min-dang), Nationalist forces and millions of civilians fled across the strait to a little island called Taiwan (also called Formosa) and established a government-in-exile. Taiwan is the last bastion of the "Republic of China (R.O.C.)" today. Mao termed his new government, the "People's Republic of China."

Taiwan is NOT American-controlled. As a matter of fact there's been American opposition to Taiwan "formally" declaring their independence.

On a side note, the whole independence thing's only come to pass because all of the old soldiers have died with their progeny having migrated to the US, Canada, or Europe. (My father's one of them). The KMT's lost a lot of power and membership, and now there's an imbecile in power (Chen Shui-Bian), you know the guy that faked an assasination attempt and wants to change the Taiwan flag. The guy who calls for "Green Pride or Power or whatever." Boo you. Blue Pride!!!

America does NOT "need" Taiwan to spy on China. We have NOC agents, we have EP-3 surveillance aircraft ("spy planes"), we have satellites capable of high-resolution images of any spot on the planet, along with a host of other technologies. How many intelligence agencies do we have? The FBI, CIA, DIA, NSA, NSIA, NRO, etc. etc. etc. American intelligence is rivaled by none.

They're not telling the Chinese to ERASE history...they're telling the Chinese that mentioning Japanese atrocities during WWII over, and over, and over again just creates a very negative and false image of the Japanese.

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So it's ok for the Jews to "over, and over, and over again" talk of German "atrocities during WWII"? But it's not ok for the Chinese to do it?

That's oh-so-very fair...

There's one simple reason to this. Its because the Japanese are no longer imperialists and are trying to acheive a better world image...I'm sure there are close to zero left-wing extremists in Japan.

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Then you'd be wrong. Nothing is absolute. Weirdos and wackos will always exist. There's a lot more than "close to zero" left-wing extermists in Japan.

#78 vagabond

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:19 AM

Russia had their work camps that were in part more like death camps. Russia executed lots of people during WW2. Civilians and people that did not like the goverment. They did the same things as the germans did to civilians in countries they invaded, only talking about what went on by soldiers not in all the camps germany had. Russia got away with alot due to them beeing on the allies side against the axis.

#79 JWu

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:38 AM

Russia had their work camps that were in part more like death camps. Russia executed  lots of people during WW2. Civilians and people that did not like the goverment. They did the same things as the germans did to civilians in countries they invaded, only talking about what went on by soldiers not in all the camps germany had. Russia got away with alot due to them beeing on the allies side against the axis.

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Yeah, the Soviet Union executed a lot of people in their Siberian gulags. So what? Every country on the face of this planet has committed atrocities (with the possible exception of Switzerland; they may have, but I do not know).

#80 tmapplepeel

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 11:57 AM

There's nothing wrong with honoring dead war criminals? Of course not, in terms of the law. But that just hurts the feelings of a whole nation, and brings back hatred that is going away. Does anyone honor the Nazi's and Hitler? The people who want the public to appreciate them and honor them won't do so. Yes, there are people who still do it, but unlike the japanese, these people who do aren't THE POLITICAL FACES of the ENTIRE COUNTRY. The number is small, but it counts WHO.


I think you're misinterperated the reason why they where honoring the war criminials. They honor them because they served their country. I'm sure many Germans today honor Heinrich Himmler, and Rommell.
And if you are talking about this

"Yasukuni Shrine honors 14 Class-A World War II criminals along with 2.47 million Japanese dead in wars since the mid-19th century."-People's Daily

There is nothing wrong with visiting a shrine that honors dead countrymen.

"aimed at offering sincere feeling based on lament. It is natural to feel this way as a Japanese,"

I agree with him. It's like honoring Mao Ze Dong in China, at least in the Western point of view. Stalin is a convicted War Criminal. Mao Ze Dong followed Stalin's idea of communism and in a few ways is even a more "true communist" than Stalin himself. You are basically saying President Bush isn't allowed to visit the war graves at Iwo, and to be honest...probably 25% commited "War crimes" such as killing Japanese who would surrender.

Of course the bomb wasn't necessary to win the war. If there wasn't the bomb, there would be an invasion of Tokyo. The japanese started drafting kids into the army, and i'm sure the fire bombing would have continued. And besides you later mentioned to forget emotion right? Eisenhower didn't say this DURING the war, when he would be faced with sending soldiers to their deaths, a D-Day 2. With the bomb, America shortened the length of the war, at the cost of civilian life. If they had not, the continuing war would mean more lives lost in all the countries occupied by Japan, more crimes, and more American life lost. The fact that they had second thoughts about dropping the bomb shows that they weren't as ruthless as the Japanese.


Yes he mentioned it after the war but this makes COMPLETELY no difference. As great as a commander Eisenhower was, he understood that inorder to win the war lives would be lost. And to be honest, noone knows if there would of been less casualites. (The Japanese lost 200,000-280,000 at the moment the bomb exploded, but LARGE numbers of people died to Radiation Poisoning)....you know what i find funny...how you talk about the Geneva Convention like you know all about it and that I don't know anything about it. Did you know that the Geneva Convention outlawed bombing civilians as illegal? Actually, you wouldn't even need it. Its immoral to bomb people who are not involved in the war.

Oh and on a side note, it would of been just called D-day because D-day means deliverance day. (There was also a D-Day on Iwo Jima)

You're most AMAZING point. Oh, so the rape occurs after the war? when the soldiers go back to their hometown? Even if it did occur after the war, does that make it ok? "HEY WARS OVER, RAPE AWAY!" I hope you didn't think too much about this one, or you weren't dead-set on including it in your argument. This actually pissed me off. THANKS


LOL...this is the funniest post yet, too many war movies for you. You know after a war, there is something called "Occupation duty", and this job was assigned to the American soldiers. What happens when men who have been fighting for 4 years, drink huge amounts of alcohol, and have too much time on their hands? Rape, shootings, and crimes. And if it pissed you off I don't understand why. Its 100% true that the majority of rape happens after a war is over. Guess you learned something today eh?

Questioning the point questions the text in article. Does history not match up to your recollection of what happened? I'm sorry. Go read the TIME article and get back to me. The men were NOT INFORMED, however they did suspect it (in the article). The mix of emotions you describe was also mentioned in this article. The article mentioned that they had mixed emotions. Happy that the war would be over, and american lives would be saved, yet horror in the fact that they had just killed so many people.


Never been on an forum or something? You are supposed to provide the link for the article, not me. Anyways here's something you should know
"I thought at the time and I still do, that we saved an awful lot of lives. American and Japanese both. The Japanese were never going to give up unless we had something like that. We would have had to kill off all the Japanese, and there would have been a lot of Americans killed in the meantime... My conscience never hurt me any. I think we saved thousands and thousands of lives."
-- Vince Ortman.
btw if you don't know who he is, he was a gunner on the B-29 Enola Gay

"The Enola Gay was specially modified for its mission and was handpicked from the assembly line in Omaha by the pilot of the atomic bomb mission, Col. Paul Tibbets. He named the plane after his mother. The plane was delivered to the U.S. Army Air Forces on May 18, 1945. "

This is funny, because it would be hilarious if his Senior told Col. Paul Tibbets to handpick a aircraft, just for fun. Obviously his Seniors or President Truman himself told Col. Tibbets that he was to drop an atomic bomb. Also, seeing how his rank is so high (Colonel) he obviously knew what was happening.

Here's the link if you question the authenticity of what I'm saying. About the Enola Gay

Wow, you sure talk like you know about all the details regarding yet another current affair! Your response makes no sense, and I forgot why I included that in my original article. Do you know what KMT is? Who Chang Kai Shek is? If you answered no, please don't talk like you know what you're saying.


Yes I know who the KMT is. But do you know what their goal is? DEMOCRACY! They want to reunify the country to make a STRONGER DEMOCRATIC NATION. Oh and btw its why TAIWAN wants to reunify with CHINA. Not what I was talking about, why China wants to reunify. Same with CHang Kai Shek. He is part of a Taiwanese (though Chinese based) political party who is striving to reunify as a democractic nation. And this is also why Taiwan wants to reunify, not why China wants to reunify. There is a big difference as this was what I wasn't talking about.

WHAT?! What about the politicians who HONOR THE DEAD WAR CRIMINALS? is that not left-wing, or extremist?! Read The Economist or any magazine that ever mentions politics in Japan. Japan's government is bustling with left-wing // traditional thinking MEN. In terms of the people, i'm not japanese, so I don't know.


Oh, so now people who honor their war dead are left wing extremists? I think its a sign of respect. When you visit a shrine honoring people who have died in the war, it is a sign respect, that you remember the sacrifices made for the country. And yes, there are left-wing people in every single country. Also, you shouldn't read magazines and newspapers and think you know everything in the world. Most of that stuff is biased. I'm not Japanese either, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the country is striving to conquer the world.

The world hates anyone who distorts the truth. Of course Japan didn't tell China to erase history, but they are erasing it from their own minds. Why shouldn't they teach the truth, so like the atomic bomb demonstrations, this crap doesn't happen again? Yes, stereotypes arise, but that's not a good reason to cover up the past. Besides, people look past stereotypes nowadays... at least they should. Old Chinese emperors slaughtered thousands, mabye millions in some cases. That was never covered up. Lying is the worst way out, you'll find it like walking out on a branch on a tree-- soon enough, you're going to fall.

edit: another thing. The atomic bomb is probably one of the things the USA has on it's reputation as a bad thing, but does that mean we can take it out of the american textbooks, paralleling the japanese removal of what happened? If we did that, the world would erupt in protest. Supporting the US in that case is close, close enough, the supporting the japanese in what they did. I hope you don't support that, or think it was OK at all.


Oh so now your the world eh? Making assumptions to say the world hates anyone who distorts the truth? They aren't distorting the truth, their asking the Chinese to stop teaching there generations that the Japanese are horrible people. National Pride must give way to International Understanding. You know why the information about Qin was never covered up? Because its an integral part of Chinese history. Also, those things are easier to take, because its their own country men who did it. I'm not saying they're telling the Chinese to erase history

"They're not telling the Chinese to ERASE history...they're telling the Chinese that mentioning Japanese atrocities during WWII over, and over, and over again just creates a very negative and false image of the Japanese."

What I am striving for is that they stop bringing up Japanese atrocities and using it as a way to induce hatred among the Japanese.

Also, I do support the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. I also, respect the crew who did it.

When do the words of the pilot end and when do yours start? Do you not get that the hate was going away? So are you Martin Luther King now? Turn the other cheek! Even when the dark past is roused again and again?


Yes in fact I do understand that the hate was going away, exspecially in the last few years, but now the Chinese are doing what they shouldnt. Bringing up the crimse of the Japanese in WWII to induce hatred upon its people. I also really cant comphrened what you are trying to say in your last few sentences. And no I'm not Martin Luther King and I haven't tried to be. I am not trying to preach a new world order. All I am doing is offering my few cents, afterall, I have the right to free speech.

WHAT APOLOGY? I'm talking government, official one here. SHOW ME PLEASE, I'D LOVE TO SEE.


Here you go.

"TOKYO, Aug. 15 -- Striking a conciliatory note on the 60th anniversary of Japan's defeat in World War II, Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi reiterated an apology Monday for "the huge damage and suffering" caused by his nation's past military aggression and pledged it would never happen again."

This is from the Washington Post, I hope that this is a good enough source for you.

The Complete Article

Why do you save your comment on your bias for the last sentence? You should have put it in your first one and saved me some time. mutual hatred? Heh, China wasn't even communist when all the war crimes were commited. Thanks for your biased argument.

I was actually thinking about not replying since this post has not much to do with the current affair, except for the last quick blurb. So, I'd like to wish you good luck when you join the Canadian army. I hope I got through to you somehow, so you don't become a mindless soldier that takes orders without thinking.

Yes, in war you must learn to neglect emotion, but there are limits-- something called the Geneva Convention happened. Yes, you're a good soldier, serving a great army, but does that mean people shouldn't hate you? The Japanese were excellent soldiers, but horrible people (of course not every single one of them, but a good enough number).

Please, correct me where I am obviously wrong and biased. Thanks.


I saved my comment on my personal bias because I think it has pretty much no relevance to this argument. I have based my comments on multitudes of sources from both points of view. I suggest you research more on the emotions of war, read personal accounts of how war is like and so forth. A mindless soldier eh? Bet you didn't know that thats what a good soldier. A good soldier has mind, but he listens to his superiors because he belevies in them.

"We're all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends on it." Ronald Speirs. Ret.

An emotionless soldier is a good one, one who will survive, one who will get the job done. You know, to be honest, I wouldn't care if the enemy country hated me, I was getting my job done, and I'm sure that every soldier in his right mind was thinking that too. I also dont understand that point where you said "Yes, in war you must learn to neglect emotion, but there are limits-- something called the Geneva Convention happened" Please clarify on this. That's pretty much all I have to say for that post.

Now for ANOTHER post.

Communism is a failure. There never was nor will there ever be, a pure communist state. It's an ideal textbook scenario, but one that's not practical for use in the world at large. China is NOT currently a communist state. It is classified as a "police state" (or it was at least 5 years ago). Now, it's certainly taken steps toward becoming a productive, capitalistic society.


Yes China may not be a "communist state" but they still believe in the ideas of communism, and look up to Mao Ze Dong, Stalin, and Che Guevara (or however you spell his name). And yes, it is taking steps, which i think is very good, to become more capitalist, as it is starting to become the new world superpower.

And the US is no different? I'll give you an example. The textbooks that I used when I was in elementary school stated that Johannes Gutenburg invented the printing press. Now, in the 21st century, that is known as an entirely false statement. Printing was invented in China in the 8th or 9th century. Movable type was invented, again by the Chinese, a few centuries later. Gutenburg merely took the next step and used metal alloys. There's also discussion about how credit is due to other individuals who helped in Gutenburg's use of metal.

Is that not biased history?

Is history not biased in itself? History is an account of the past, written by the victors. To know true history, one has to read both sides (if they still exist).

Yes, yes, you're not just talking about history. Why are Americans thought of as "exceedingly arrogant" by practically every other country on the Earth? Because most Americans think of the US as "the center of the universe." How many Americans can name every single province in Canada? (I surely can't.) How many Americans know where Uruguay is? (it does not count if you live in California and have taken Spanish-language courses in school) Where the UAE is? Who the Kuomintang are?


I completely agree with you. History is biased, but I have tried to view all arguments from both stand point. And to be honest, I am Canadian and I can't even name all the provinces and territories...hahaha

Taiwan is NOT American-controlled. As a matter of fact there's been American opposition to Taiwan "formally" declaring their independence.

My bad if I said Taiwan was American-controlled, but it was and is certainly influenced by the Americans, and as a matter of fact, the United States does need Taiwan to spy on China. The US have put spy equipment on the Taiwan soil.

America does NOT "need" Taiwan to spy on China. We have NOC agents, we have EP-3 surveillance aircraft ("spy planes"), we have satellites capable of high-resolution images of any spot on the planet, along with a host of other technologies. How many intelligence agencies do we have? The FBI, CIA, DIA, NSA, NSIA, NRO, etc. etc. etc. American intelligence is rivaled by none.


Yes you have many and "high tech" spying agencies and equipment, but ALOT of improvement is still needed. For example, if your intelligence may be rivaled by none but is still pretty bad, as you have still failed to find Osama Bin Laden. Also, spy planes are not the only things needed. Long-distance listening devices, radars, lasers are all needed. The US have Taiwan just in case China does infact (highly unlikely) invade one of the three American influenced countries around it (ie. South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan)

So it's ok for the Jews to "over, and over, and over again" talk of German "atrocities during WWII"? But it's not ok for the Chinese to do it?

That's oh-so-very fair...


As far as I know the Jews dont talk about German atrocities during WWII to spark hatred towards Germany.

#81 Locket

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 04:25 PM

I think you're misinterperated the reason why they where honoring the war criminials. They honor them because they served their country. I'm sure many Germans today honor Heinrich Himmler, and Rommell.
And if you are talking about this

"Yasukuni Shrine honors 14 Class-A World War II criminals along with 2.47 million Japanese dead in wars since the mid-19th century."-People's Daily

There is nothing wrong with visiting a shrine that honors dead countrymen.

"aimed at offering sincere feeling based on lament. It is natural to feel this way as a Japanese,"

I agree with him. It's like honoring Mao Ze Dong in China, at least in the Western point of view. Stalin is a convicted War Criminal. Mao Ze Dong followed Stalin's idea of communism and in a few ways is even a more "true communist" than Stalin himself. You are basically saying President Bush isn't allowed to visit the war graves at Iwo, and to be honest...probably 25% commited "War crimes" such as killing Japanese who would surrender.

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You watch a lot of TV right? Since the TV is ALWAYS RIGHT! well, on TV, on history channel (ur fave), there was a program that showed video of japanese. First, most Japanese didn't surrender. In fact, they preferred to kill themselves. Once again you talk like you were in the war, or you're som expert on Japanese tactics and war mentality-- if you were, i'd back down no contest :D.

What the hell? You just brought Mao Ze Dong down to the level of a Japanese Class -A War Criminal! Even I don't dislike him that much! I'm sure the PEASANTS in Mao's army didn't rape the women and kill the children of another nation! If they did it, to the level that the japanese did, I'll retake history. I'm avoiding political discussions from now on, jesus!

In terms of honoring dead soldiers, I see your point. However, the war criminals were the ones that authorized the sh** that happened (refer to the pictures). I'm sure you haven't seen any, or that you're just too accepting of rape and slaughter. That'd more be like the Americans honoring the soldier who shot an injured Iraqi who was "playing dead!" Not likely.


LOL...this is the funniest post yet, too many war movies for you. You know after a war, there is something called "Occupation duty", and this job was assigned to the American soldiers. What happens when men who have been fighting for 4 years, drink huge amounts of alcohol, and have too much time on their hands? Rape, shootings, and crimes. And if it pissed you off I don't understand why. Its 100% true that the majority of rape happens after a war is over. Guess you learned something today eh?

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Yes, I learned something. I learned that people like you think rape is OK as long as you're drinking alcohol and have too much time on your hand. Maybe it's the reason you want to join the army. Look at the Nanjing Massacre, pictures, and information. Want a link ya lazy person? Here. THIS IS REAL, AND IT HAPPENED DURING THE WAR. Look at the picture gallery, and tell me if ANY OF THAT is OK, regardless of the circumstances, time of day, or who did it. I guess you will say yes, since that's the only way you can support your ridiculous rape argument now. Sick, sick, sick. :P

With your argument, all of those pictures, all the smiles on the faces of the japanese holding heads would be fine-- given the fact that oh, they were just drunk and bored!

AMAZING

edit: Forgot to warn u guys that the pictures are pretty disgusting and horrific... then again probably not to applepeel (so go ahead).


Never been on an forum or something? You are supposed to provide the link for the article, not me.

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If you have a subscription to the online version of TIME magazine, PM me with ur login or something. Otherwise, get some money and use some energy to get out of your seat and buy it.

Ask me if i've never been on a forum? You look like you don't even know how to use multiple quotes! Good job, i feel real bad now.

edit: I forgot to mention... the press is supposed to be unbiased. Compared to countries around the world, it's not that bad. And the more you read, the less biased you are. Do children get told not to read because they might get some biased ideas? It's the opposite, since when the press releases biased information there are consequences... at least there should be.


Yes I know who the KMT is. But do you know what their goal is? DEMOCRACY! They want to reunify the country to make a STRONGER DEMOCRATIC NATION. Oh and btw its why TAIWAN wants  to reunify with CHINA. Not what I was talking about, why China wants to reunify. Same with CHang Kai Shek. He is part of a Taiwanese (though Chinese based) political party who is striving to reunify as a democractic nation. And this is also why Taiwan wants to reunify, not why China wants to reunify. There is a big difference as this was what I wasn't talking about.

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WOW. You talk like you're KMT yourself! You definently do not have a clear understanding of the situation, so please just drop it. You seem too stubborn to accept any outside information. Political discussion should be banned here, jesus...


Oh, so now people who honor their war dead are left wing extremists? I think its a sign of respect. When you visit a shrine honoring people who have died in the war, it is a sign respect, that you remember the sacrifices made for the country. And yes, there are left-wing people in every single country. Also, you shouldn't read magazines and newspapers and think you know everything in the world. Most of that stuff is biased. I'm not Japanese either, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the country is striving to conquer the world.

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You talk as if you don't read at all. Your pure thought must be final shouldn't it! Do some research yourself and then, then and ONLY THEN, respond. You talk with extremes, casually throwing a "EVERYONE" or "NOBODY" with some crazy statement afterwards. If I was an army recruiter, you'd be my b*tch -_- haha

Oh so now your the world eh? Making assumptions to say the world hates anyone who distorts the truth? They aren't distorting the truth, their asking the Chinese to stop teaching there generations that the Japanese are horrible people. National Pride must give way to International Understanding. You know why the information about Qin was never covered up? Because its an integral part of Chinese history. Also, those things are easier to take, because its their own country men who did it. I'm not saying they're telling the Chinese to erase history

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The strict regime and cruelty shown by past emperors a vital part to Chinese history is NOT a vital part of chinese history. If you think it is, keep thinking that way, since I know I can't change your brick of a mind. WTF do you mean it's easier to take because its their own country men who did it? WTF? THE JAPANESE ARMY HAD JAPANESE SOLDIERS THAT COMMITED WAR CRIMES DAILY. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

"They're not telling the Chinese to ERASE history...they're telling the Chinese that mentioning Japanese atrocities during WWII over, and over, and over again just creates a very negative and false image of the Japanese."

What I am striving for is that they stop bringing up Japanese atrocities and using it as a way to induce hatred among the Japanese.

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The hatred came back because the Japanese tried to erase it, from their TEXTBOOKS. You have things flip flopped.

All I am doing is offering my few cents, afterall, I have the right to free speech.

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Of course you have the right to free speech. Your "few cents" so far seem like a couple hundred bucks, waving in front my face and on fire due to how ridiculous some of your cents are. Yes, you have the right to free speech, and so do the japanese. That doesn't mean people won't try to correct you, and you won't face animosity and consequences for what you say. You're joining the army, you'll learn about "free speech" soon enough. I suggest if you want to keep it, don't join (my few cents). Also, the prime minister of Japan is one of the more liberal politicians, and he is in heated conflict with the conservational ppl of the government. If only you read.

An emotionless soldier is a good one, one who will survive, one who will get the job done. You know, to be honest, I wouldn't care if the enemy country hated me, I was getting my job done, and I'm sure that every soldier in his right mind was thinking that too. I also dont understand that point where you said "Yes, in war you must learn to neglect emotion, but there are limits-- something called the Geneva Convention happened" Please clarify on this. That's pretty much all I have to say for that post.

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Ya got me on the Geneva Convention, good job! :lol: And yes you have the right idea as to what a mindless foot soldier should be... would you feel OK raping women, killing children? I REALLY hope you don't.

I said it before... the japanese were excellent soldiers. That didn't mean what they did was OK, since they lost. :ph34r:

Edited by Locket, 23 August 2005 - 05:20 PM.


#82 JWu

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 04:33 PM

I'm about to drive off to 'Frisco (San Fran) in a few minutes so I don't have time to umm "discuss" tmapplepeel's points, but something just struck my mind.

Ya got me on the Geneva Convention, good job! laugh.gif And yes you have the right idea as to what a mindless foot soldier should be... would you feel OK raping women, killing children? I REALLY hope you don't.


It kinda makes you wonder about the homosexual Japanese soldiers. They certainly would not rape women...so.... Heh.

If you have a subscription to the online version of TIME magazine, PM me with ur login or something. Otherwise, get some money and use some energy to get out of your seat and buy it.

Ask me if i've never been on a forum? You look like you don't even know how to use multiple quotes! Good job, i feel real bad now.


I totally agree. tmapplepeel: What about the people who subscribe to the actual printed version of the magazine? (Like me). Time's been around before the internet and thousands of readers worldwide still use (and love) the traditional hard-copy medium.

Oh yeah, the quote system is because Coolin put a limit to the amount of (quote) tags you can use in a post. After you've surpassed the limit, they all become unformatted (as seen above). Only in that type of situation are double posts allowed here. :D

#83 Locket

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 05:16 PM

Oh yeah, the quote system is because Coolin put a limit to the amount of (quote) tags you can use in a post.  After you've surpassed the limit, they all become unformatted (as seen above).  Only in that type of situation are double posts allowed here.  :D

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I see :P but if you just copy some code then it's fine, hehe

#84 tmapplepeel

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:02 PM

You watch a lot of TV right? Since the TV is ALWAYS RIGHT! well, on TV, on history channel (ur fave), there was a program that showed video of japanese. First, most Japanese didn't surrender. In fact, they preferred to kill themselves. Once again you talk like you were in the war, or you're som expert on Japanese tactics and war mentality-- if you were, i'd back down no contest .

What the hell? You just brought Mao Ze Dong down to the level of a Japanese Class -A War Criminal! Even I don't dislike him that much! I'm sure the PEASANTS in Mao's army didn't rape the women and kill the children of another nation! If they did it, to the level that the japanese did, I'll retake history. I'm avoiding political discussions from now on, jesus!

In terms of honoring dead soldiers, I see your point. However, the war criminals were the ones that authorized the sh** that happened (refer to the pictures). I'm sure you haven't seen any, or that you're just too accepting of rape and slaughter. That'd more be like the Americans honoring the soldier who shot an injured Iraqi who was "playing dead!" Not likely.


There's one problem to that. I don't watch much TV. In fact I barely watch any. Except on 3 days of the year I watch the History Channel V-E Day, V-J Day, and D-Day. Yes, most Japanese wouldn't surrender and in fact I don't blame them. I certainly wouldn't. And if I talk like I was in the war I'm sorry, because I wasn't trying to do that. And I can't say everything I'm saying is correct, and neither can you. What I say is based 80% on books, 15% on the Internet, and 5% on TV. You can't for see what people do in war. I'm postive that several of Mao's army peasants raped people. And on a big side note. I never said it was okay. I just tried to say that it happens after a war, not during one. And the reason I used Mao as an example is because if it wasn't for him, I personally think that without him, China would of been a glorious, prosperous country.

In terms of honoring dead soldiers, I see your point. However, the war criminals were the ones that authorized the sh** that happened (refer to the pictures). I'm sure you haven't seen any, or that you're just too accepting of rape and slaughter. That'd more be like the Americans honoring the soldier who shot an injured Iraqi who was "playing dead!" Not likely.


Yes I don't think I've seen enough, but I have seen what slaughter and rape looks like. I guess you could say I'm accepting of it. That does not mean I accept it. But I have a reason. You will never imagine or see (unless you do it yourself) what the emotions involved in war are. The general feeling is "Hey...we might die tomorrow, why not live life to the fullest?"

I'd also like you to quote the exact words that I said that show I'm accepting of rape and I think its okay, as you mention it in a multitude of points afterwards.

I guess you will say yes, since that's the only way you can support your ridiculous rape argument now


given the fact that oh, they were just drunk and bored!


You know, I didn't say that its okay because they were drunk and bored, "What happens when men who have been fighting for 4 years, drink huge amounts of alcohol, and have too much time on their hands? Rape, shootings, and crimes."
I said it is why it happens.

If you have a subscription to the online version of TIME magazine, PM me with ur login or something. Otherwise, get some money and use some energy to get out of your seat and buy it.


To be honest, I don't read Big time-American magazines. There head is so far up their arse that the lump in their throat is their goddamn nose. Now TIME is still a good read, no doubt about that, offering some very accurate and good information, but I stay away from it all.

I forgot to mention... the press is supposed to be unbiased. Compared to countries around the world, it's not that bad. And the more you read, the less biased you are. Do children get told not to read because they might get some biased ideas? It's the opposite, since when the press releases biased information there are consequences... at least there should be.


Maybe I'm way into consparcies, but the government controls the press. They control what they say...there is alot of things that are happening that you don't know. And its very simple to find out how.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed
masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our
society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).


This is from Lt. Gen. Chuck Pittmann, USMC (Ret.) He basically sums what I'm trying to say all up. The media is controlled by the government. Simple as that.

WOW. You talk like you're KMT yourself! You definently do not have a clear understanding of the situation, so please just drop it. You seem too stubborn to accept any outside information.


I agree. I do not have the greatest understanding of this situation, and thats why the only thing I've said that is directly relevant to this situations is

"I'd like to conclude that the Japanese have apologized, they have changed, but however the Chinese have not seen the potential friend Japan is, and have not given them enough mercy. They may have commited many atrocities, but the Chinese are far worse if the do not take the Japs' apologies. Also, I believe the South Korean's have the right to the territory, and that the Japanese should rightfully give it to the Korean's without any conflict. I'd also like to add that ALL three are not doing this
"National pride must give way to international understanding"" What I have been arguing is about the remarks made about WWII.

"You talk as if you don't read at all. Your pure thought must be final shouldn't it! Do some research yourself and then, then and ONLY THEN, respond. You talk with extremes, casually throwing a "EVERYONE" or "NOBODY" with some crazy statement afterwards."

And you asked me what I was smoking eh? I don't say things without any supporting evidence. And btw, the only books that I've read about Americans during WWII is from American authors. So if you don't believe what I'm saying that you don't believe your fellow countrymen either.

The strict regime and cruelty shown by past emperors a vital part to Chinese history is NOT a vital part of chinese history. If you think it is, keep thinking that way, since I know I can't change your brick of a mind. WTF do you mean it's easier to take because its their own country men who did it? WTF? THE JAPANESE ARMY HAD JAPANESE SOLDIERS THAT COMMITED WAR CRIMES DAILY. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?


Well first of all the first sentence doesn't make sense, but I assume that you meant its not a vital part of history. History is what made the present. It is vital to know your country's history. Basically, you're saying that Americans don't need to know about their civil war, or an integral part of history. Okay. Let me clarify. Emperor Qin's dynstay helped the continual construction of the Great Wall. Shouldn't Chinese people know about the history of one of their national landmarks? Not a vital part. My arse.

They told the Chinese government to remove the dark side of Japan from their history book


The hatred came back because the Japanese tried to erase it, from their TEXTBOOKS. You have things flip flopped.


Now I don't know who to believe. The other person, who posted b4 you, said that the Japanese wanted to remove parts of the Japanese atrocities from the Chinese government. And as I was typing up my second post, I was basing parts of it from information recieved from other people, and I saw his statement first. I still do not know which one to believe.

Of course you have the right to free speech. Your "few cents" so far seem like a couple hundred bucks, waving in front my face and on fire due to how ridiculous some of your cents are. Yes, you have the right to free speech, and so do the japanese. That doesn't mean people won't try to correct you, and you won't face animosity and consequences for what you say. You're joining the army, you'll learn about "free speech" soon enough. I suggest if you want to keep it, don't join (my few cents). Also, the prime minister of Japan is one of the more liberal politicians, and he is in heated conflict with the conservational ppl of the government. If only you read.


Its called a "figure of speech". RIDICULOUS? Yea....sure...ridculous...show me which points I'd like to clear it up for your head. And oh, I don't need childish comments like

then again probably not to applepeel (so go ahead).

Otherwise, get some money and use some energy to get out of your seat and buy it.

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

If I was an army recruiter, you'd be my b*tch haha

These childish comments just continue to futher my belief that you're rather immature. You may be 16, and I may be 13 but age is only a number.

There's one thing that makes me know you are rather uninformed about the military. (or maybe its just the US) When I mentioned military, (which includes Navy, Air Force, and Army in Canada) you assumed that I was joining the army. The military includes many things, but due to TV, most people assume that the military means army.

"And yes you have the right idea as to what a mindless foot soldier should be... would you feel OK raping women, killing children? I REALLY hope you don't."

"A mindless soldier eh? Bet you didn't know that thats what a good soldier. A good soldier has mind, but he listens to his superiors because he belevies in them."-me

Mindless foot soldier eh? You refer to soldiers as if they are inferior to you. You see my quote? It says "he (or she) listens to his (or her) superiors because he believes in them". What you're saying is the "mindless foot soldier's" superior would tell him to rape women and kill children?!?

Because I said a good soldier forgets his emotions, or at least doesn't show them because a good soldier needs to accomplish his job. Would a soldier's job be to "rape women and kill children"?

"Ya got me on the Geneva Convention, good job!" I still don't understand this. I was asking you how the in war, "the Geneva Convention limits how much a soldier can neglect his emotions"? The Geneva Convention was designed to protect POWs and prevent civilian casualties. How does this relate to how much a soldier can neglect his emotions?

oh and btw the quote thing happened again.

#85 Locket

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:51 PM

You obviously won't budge on any issues, so I won't argue with you again on other points. That doesn't matter to me anymore, since it's more political, than moral.

Look at the Nanjing Massacre, pictures, and information. Want a link ya lazy person? Here. THIS IS REAL, AND IT HAPPENED DURING THE WAR. Look at the picture gallery, and tell me  if ANY OF THAT is OK, regardless of the circumstances, time of day, or who did it.  I guess you will say yes, since that's the only way you can support your ridiculous rape argument now. Sick, sick, sick.  ;)

With your argument, all of those pictures, all the smiles on the faces of the japanese holding heads would be fine-- given the fact that oh, they were just drunk and bored!

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If you have no problem, and you can accept that that happened and still support the occurence of those crimes, I have a problem with you. Otherwise, I don't care. I'll leave someone else to argue and quibble with you

just yes or no please, don't dodge the question since you're obviously so mature. When it comes down to it, just say if those acts are right, or wrong. That's the only separation I can provide for ya.

So, (1) Yes, (2) No. Please.

But all in all I don't think you can have your mind changed by me. Maybe 3 more years of life and school? That changed me a lot.

Good debate :) hehe

edit: I'd rather come here for BoA news :)

Edited by Locket, 23 August 2005 - 09:56 PM.


#86 krjeami

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:14 PM

It is true that various individual apologies have been issued in Japan. However, it is not uncommon that these apologies be followed by undermining actions that lead people to question sincerity. Even so, I do not see such apologies particularly useful, as they bare limited value to past victims of the aggression. I believe that if Japan was truly interested in improving and promoting a good international image, rather than its image in the Western world, past victims would be compensated. Actions speak louder than words, afterall. Unfortunately, I don't see this as a likely turn of events any time soon. Rather, I think Japan is waiting for the older generation to die off, and in turn, force countries that fell victim to the Japanese imperial rule to obscure their own past.

Here's a good quote from an article I recently read:

On the other hand, I am equally frustrated by right-wing (and increasingly mainstream) Japanese commentary which seems to think that the story of apologies is one of repeated clear expressions of admitted responsibility and which fails to see how conflicting messages given by leading government officials, especially among the increasing numbers of conservative bureaucrats and politicians who read the revisionist accounts of Japan’s past war, can create a complete lack of trust among the agitated peoples of Korea and China in the genuine and sincere feelings of regret which are still felt (and when given the chance, expressed) by the majority of people in Japan.


This guy really took the words out of my mouth!
If the government controls the media, does the "increasingly right-wing mainstream" media reveal true intentions of Japan, or are you just wrong?

Oh, by the way, anti-Japanese sentiment didn't just spark randomly early this year. Koreans/Chinese were angered by Japan's poor choices. Japan decided to claim Dokdo, and Japan decided to drill in the China Sea. Things only got worse as these textbooks were released, and Japan proposed a seat on the UN Security Council.


And the US is no different? I'll give you an example. The textbooks that I used when I was in elementary school stated that Johannes Gutenburg invented the printing press.  Now, in the 21st century, that is known as an entirely false statement.  Printing was invented in China in the 8th or 9th century.  Movable type was invented, again by the Chinese, a few centuries later.  Gutenburg merely took the next step and used metal alloys.  There's also discussion about how credit is due to other individuals who helped in Gutenburg's use of metal.

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Haha. We are still taught that Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press. However, we also read mention that Koreans and Chinese experimented with block printing around the same time, and Koreans were the first to play around with it using metal. Just a brief mention though. I remember being forced to watch a video about how Johannes Gutenberg is the greatest inventor of all time while sitting in World History class. :)

#87 tmapplepeel

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:33 PM

You obviously won't budge on any issues, so I won't argue with you again on other points. That doesn't matter to me anymore, since it's more political, than moral.


Its not that I'm extremely stubborn and that I always think I'm right. But in order for me to believe you, I have to believe your points, and most of your points are based upon an assumtion you made of me (that i thought it was okay). How can I believe you if I solemnly don't feel this way. Also this topic is about a political problem isn't it? There is a LARGE difference between what is man-made (ie. politics, laws, etc) and morality, emotions, etc.

My English teacher had given me this great example everytime we debated.

If a someone stole something from a store, he should be arrested right?
But the boy stole some bread for his hungry and starving sister.

So what he has done is politically illegal, but morally is right.

Anyways, I really don't see your point.

If you have no problem, and you can accept that that happened and still support the occurence of those crimes, I have a problem with you. Otherwise, I don't care. I'll leave someone else to argue and quibble with you

just yes or no please, don't dodge the question since you're obviously so mature. When it comes down to it, just say if those acts are right, or wrong. That's the only separation I can provide for ya.

So, (1) Yes, (2) No. Please.

But all in all I don't think you can have your mind changed by me. Maybe 3 more years of life and school? That changed me a lot.


Simple. If you want me to state if I think rape is alright, I'll tell you. Its rather obvious. I've never thought rape was okay, and I never will. I have always thought it was morally and politically wrong. I've given my reasons as to why that happened, but in no way does it mean it was okay. Just because I think there was reason to it doesn't mean I think it's okay. For example, a man killed someone because he felt like it. His reason is because he felt like it. Just because he has a reason doesn't mean its okay.

"And on a big side note. I never said it was okay."
"That does not mean I accept it. "
"I'd also like you to quote the exact words that I said that show I'm accepting of rape and I think its okay, as you mention it in a multitude of points afterwards."
"You know, I didn't say that its okay because they were drunk and bored,"

Actually I just found many parts that show that I don't think its okay. Maybe they all don't show my point clearly.

3 years of life and school has changed much in me. More so in the last year. I wouldn't have been saying this all of this information a year ago. In fact, 2 years ago I thought Hitler used to be an American president. But since then I have been striving to fully understand (and it is impossible) WWII, war, and all the emotions involved. I read statistics, but whats more important to me is the other side of the story, a personal one. You are incorrect that you can't change what I think. If you offered better reasons and ones not based on a false assumtion, I most likely would of shut-up right away. And btw, I'd still like to see your view on the previous arguements, because it would help me much.

oh and btw today, August 24th, was the day the British and us burned the White House in 1814. Just thought I'd add it here. =P

Edited by tmapplepeel, 24 August 2005 - 09:16 PM.


#88 hypergrl09

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:08 AM

You know, I'm actually pretty sure that the Chinese mostly rely on their own products, so I don't believe a boycott would give China as hard of a blow as you seem to think.
Anyway, regarding the islets, you have to try and look at it from a neutral perspective. Korea has owned and funded the islets since anyone can remember. The US and France have dug out old maps (some even from the 12th century), clearly showing that the islets are Korean. And, right around the same time scientists discover the islets as a potential oil resource, Japan suddenly claims them. How does that work?
The islets in question are very close to an island called Ulleung-do, which is inhabited by several Koreans. The Koreans rely on the fishing waters around the islets, and have for years. How is it that the Japanese can suddenly try to take their lives (figuratively speaking) away?
The Japanese have tried to lay claim on these islets twice in the past. Each time, Japan had given in and agreed that the islets were Korean. How does that make them Japanese? Yeah, it doesn't make sense. 2005 was Korea-Japan Friendship Year, and it was going considerably well. That is, until Japan decided to screw it all up.


Oh, and about the Japanese textbooks, think about it as if someone began spreading a bunch of lies about you (or began claiming your things) in order to make themself look better. Wouldn't that get you pissed? Japan is completely aware that their textbooks contain distortions of Korean history, yet decided to use them anyway. You know, they also use textbooks with Chinese historical distortions, and they are completely aware of it.
Korea was actually doing pretty well, as far as letting the anti-Japanese feelings settle. However, Japan's unfair behavior and blatant lying has provoked the anti-Japanese sentiment resulting from the imperial Japanese occupation of Korea. Yes, there is flag burning and rallies, even in the USA. No, I wouldn't call this "too historic." Your people weren't tortured and ruined under imperial rule. Your people's islets aren't being claimed by the same nation. Your people's history isn't being distorted in that same nation's school textbooks. I can see why it's difficult for you to grasp why so much commotion is occuring over this situation.
Oh, and this is the 21st century. Definitely not the 20th.

Yes, I do hear the anti-Japanese sentiment in China is through the roof. In fact, I heard that the Chinese are raised hating Japan, and some don't even know why. They just know that they hate Japan. I don't think it's that they're actually being shielded from the reality of this world.
How do you know that Japan is sorry? Has Japan bothered to apologize? No sir. Has Japan bothered to apologize to any of the countries that suffered under their imperial rule? Most definitely not. Japan agreed to compensate Korea for the atrocities committed in their occupation. Has Japan bothered doing so? Nope. The subject has been brought up several times by Korea, and yet Japan seems to intentionally push it to the side.
If you're going to complain about Chinese historical distortions, well, don't. I would say that Japanese historical distortions are in need of more attention. They basically completely white-wash Japan's history. :P The Japanese are taught only the good side of Japan, in contrast to what you are saying is happening in China.

The difference with the nuclear bombings in Japan is that America and Japan were at war. Japan attacked America. Japan was the enemy and the Americans had to do what they had to do. I bet that if America had bombed Japan for no reason whatsoever, they would have apologized and compensated victims at the least. Something Japan has yet to do.

It's funny, really. Japan wants to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council and expects Asia's support. I believe basically all of Asia is against it. They believe that Japan cannot be given such a large amount of responsibility, if they can't even suck up to their past actions and take responsibility for them.

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what he said...i was gonna write something similar to dat

Edited by hypergrl09, 31 August 2005 - 08:09 AM.





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